brakes

[RZBansheeMan]

This all should be a given, especially as stated that these not being power assisted brakes. There should be no arguement whatsoever about stainless braided not providing a more positve / firmer feel or "better stopping power" rather than a real mushy one that is provided with the rubber lines. The addition of a twin piston caliper is surely going to give you more stopping power on stock pads, the more aggresive the pad the faster you wear out the rotor.

 

And Yes the brake lines have everything to do with stopping the wheels, DUH. No brake lines = no brake fluid being directed and forced into the calipers = no clamping the rotors = no stopping of the wheels. This isn't the Flintstones. :shoothead:

[dajogejr]

Yaba Daba Doo...

[Shee's Dirty]

First of all, brake lines DO NOT slow your bike down faster. If that were the case then my daily driver would be a braking beast. Stainless brake lines prevent flexing and give you a more linear and consistent feel. If you wanna upgrade the brakes, then you should go with the YFZ calipers since they have one extra piston which will provide more clamping force. After that you should pick up a more aggressive pad that really does some work. Upgrading pads might be all you really need. I don't know why everyone believes this, pic up any motorhead magazine and they will all tell you the same, brake pedal feel is better and brakes are more responsive to inputs. The brake lines have nothing to do with the actual stopping of a wheel. The pads, rotors, calipers, and tires do the work. The nicest thing about the YFZ calipers is they reduce weight.

 

 

Brake systems are nothing more than a hydraulic system. Equal pressure gets dispersed through the entire sytem no matter what. The more flexing and expanding you get in ANY system, the more braking power (Pressure) you are going to lose, thus weakening the pressure and ability to stop at the calipers. Stainless lines cure much of this pressure loss and flexing in the lines.

 

Using dual calipers doesn't boost line pressure, but it provides twice the pad surface grabbing the rotors giving you a better, more sensitive braking system. I'm sure if he put the YFZ450 complete system and stainless lines on his quad, he would be MORE than satisfied. But if it were me, I'd try just the stainless lines first before I spent all that jack. :thumbsup:

[John]

Brake systems are nothing more than a hydraulic system. Equal pressure gets dispersed through the entire sytem no matter what. The more flexing and expanding you get in ANY system, the more braking power (Pressure) you are going to lose, thus weakening the pressure and ability to stop at the calipers. Stainless lines cure much of this pressure loss and flexing in the lines.

 

Using dual calipers doesn't boost line pressure, but it provides twice the pad surface grabbing the rotors giving you a better, more sensitive braking system. I'm sure if he put the YFZ450 complete system and stainless lines on his quad, he would be MORE than satisfied. But if it were me, I'd try just the stainless lines first before I spent all that jack. :thumbsup:

 

Ok let me get this straight, brake line upgrade decreases stopping distances because more line pressure? How does the line improve the line pressure, the pressure is the pressure, there really isn't a way to add or subtract pressure with the addition of steel lines. rubber lines will only flex when they have had extreme temps brought up on them. Dual calipers does not provide more pad surface and definitely not twice the pad size. There are many brake systems and that have 2 pistons that are bigger than 4 piston designs and vice versa, equally do to caliper size, and piston size. If we are going to get really technical about reduction of speed, then I guess you might as well start with tires, which tires are the best in slowing you down. They are the only thing in contact with the ground, therefore tires are probably one of the biggest things you can do to increase braking performance. pads would be next, larger rotors and calipers would follow. Lines are really just to give you better feel. I bet if you flushed your lines and put on a more aggressive pad you would be far better off. I wouldn't spend the money on stainless lines if I wanted better stopping power, I would upgrade pads and flush the fluid. I am predominantly speaking from experience with my cars, and braking systems are braking systems regardless the vehicle. I only chose to upgrade the lines because I wanted a more consistent feel as I ran more laps that's it. Anyone wants to believe brake lines reduce your actual brake distance then your going to have to prove it to me.

[chevy7398]

how bout you give any builder/ race team or anyone else intellegent a call and ask them about brake lines, if the line swells you loose pressure to the caliper, instead of the pressure pushing on the piston the pressure is expanding the brake line, if the brake line cannot expand there is no pressure loss to the piston and therefore more clamping force is apllied and thus you stop quicker, here is a easy example, take a 1 foot long 1/4 inch metal tube and a 1 ft long ballon they make the animals out of, plug the end of the metal tube and try and blow in it, then blow in the ballon, the balloon swells just like the stock rubber brake line. it would take alot more air to put the same amount of pressure in that ballon than the metal line, dont know if you understand all this but due yourself a favor and use the internet and due some research

[Shee's Dirty]

how bout you give any builder/ race team or anyone else intellegent a call and ask them about brake lines, if the line swells you loose pressure to the caliper, instead of the pressure pushing on the piston the pressure is expanding the brake line, if the brake line cannot expand there is no pressure loss to the piston and therefore more clamping force is apllied and thus you stop quicker, here is a easy example, take a 1 foot long 1/4 inch metal tube and a 1 ft long ballon they make the animals out of, plug the end of the metal tube and try and blow in it, then blow in the ballon, the balloon swells just like the stock rubber brake line. it would take alot more air to put the same amount of pressure in that ballon than the metal line, dont know if you understand all this but due yourself a favor and use the internet and due some research

 

Great example, maybe now everyone will comprehend.

[John]

how bout you give any builder/ race team or anyone else intellegent a call and ask them about brake lines, if the line swells you loose pressure to the caliper, instead of the pressure pushing on the piston the pressure is expanding the brake line, if the brake line cannot expand there is no pressure loss to the piston and therefore more clamping force is apllied and thus you stop quicker, here is a easy example, take a 1 foot long 1/4 inch metal tube and a 1 ft long ballon they make the animals out of, plug the end of the metal tube and try and blow in it, then blow in the ballon, the balloon swells just like the stock rubber brake line. it would take alot more air to put the same amount of pressure in that ballon than the metal line, dont know if you understand all this but due yourself a favor and use the internet and due some research

 

The brake line is more like a switch to activate the rest of the braking system. I race cars on a normal basis, I think I am pretty sure I understand how the brake system works. I have done my brakes over 3 different times. You are going for a line that will stay consistent with feel. The line doesn't make it decrease braking distances any better. It allows it to sustain heat and abuse for a longer period of time. Rubber lines swell and your brake lines will do a less than acceptable job of getting your brakes to make you stop. I am good for reading any more info on brakes, I understand the system pretty well thanks. If your foolish enough to think brake lines will decrease your stopping distances over upgraded pads, then you are surely mistaken. Having stainless brake lines reduce stopping distance is like having some sort of titanium wound throttle cable to make you go faster, it doesn't work like that. We can argue this to the end of time, I am going to choose not to, I don't wanna aggravate anyone else on the matter and we can all go back to helping others on the forums and working on our own rides. :beer:

Edited September 15, 2007 by John

[sredish]

john, your ignorance hurts. if you have an inflated balloon and you squeeze two of the sides, where does the air go, out the other sides, it deconforms the balloon and sends the pressure to the sides because the air is contained in a flexible surround. same thing with the brakes, when you pull the lever, it pressurizes the line BUT, since the line is a thin rubber tube that is weak, it deconforms and swells the tube robbing pressure that would've otherwise made it to the calipers. with a stainless line, the line is stiff and strong, resistant to swelling so all the pressure goes straight to the caliper. if you don't understand that then nothing else I can say. i would suggest you just stick to your way of doing it.

 

part of the reason the newer bikes/quads have better brakes are because the lines, even though they're rubber, are much stronger and thicker, so with a yfz450 or a trx, there's less noticeable difference but with the banshee, the lines are thin and cheap.

 

edit: I don't think "deconform" is a real word.... :biggrin:

Edited September 16, 2007 by sredish

[John]

john, your ignorance hurts. if you have an inflated balloon and you squeeze two of the sides, where does the air go, out the other sides, it deconforms the balloon and sends the pressure to the sides because the air is contained in a flexible surround. same thing with the brakes, when you pull the lever, it pressurizes the line BUT, since the line is a thin rubber tube that is weak, it deconforms and swells the tube robbing pressure that would've otherwise made it to the calipers. with a stainless line, the line is stiff and strong, resistant to swelling so all the pressure goes straight to the caliper. if you don't understand that then nothing else I can say. i would suggest you just stick to your way of doing it.

 

part of the reason the newer bikes/quads have better brakes are because the lines, even though they're rubber, are much stronger and thicker, so with a yfz450 or a trx, there's less noticeable difference but with the banshee, the lines are thin and cheap.

 

edit: I don't think "deconform" is a real word.... :biggrin:

 

It's not ignorance, it's called experience. I understand how brake lines work. I also understand the benifit of stainless lines compared to rubber lines. Stainless lines reduce flexing. They allow your brakes to work at their optimum for longer. The reason new bikes with rubber lines work better is because the line is newer and hasn't been exposed to the heat and abuse like an older line on an older machine. After talking it back over with several shop owners and fellow racecar drivers, I am confident I am still correct. Why don't you do yourself a favor and email a brake line manufacturer about whether or not their brake lines reduce stopping distance? This is exactly the same for the clutch line as well in an automobile, if the line swells the pedal falls to the floor which I have experienced first hand. But what the hell do I know about brake lines since 3 out of 4 vehicles I raced have them. Do yourself a favor and call a brake line company and ask them, when they explain how their brake lines work and that they don't reduce distance but allow your calipers to get a consistent pressure.

[RZBansheeMan]

This is getting pretty darn silly. The stainless braided lines don't resist flexing, they are supposed to be flexible, what they do is resist swelling. When you have swelling you will have a pressure drop, plain and simple. I cannot beleive that you don't understand that with rubber lines that swell, the braking effectivness goes down. In hydraulics the fluid is always going to take the easiest path, it is much easier for the rubber line to swell than it is for the fluid to be forced thru the steel caliper and brake piston.

 

I have experienced with rubber lines, the front brake lever having to be pulled in very far with a mushy feel, rather than with stainless braided lines the lever not having to be pulled as far and having firmer feel to it and improving the brake effectiveness.

 

I don't know what kind of racing experience you have, but take a look at all the nascars, indy cars, super bikes, funny cars or whatever kind of big drag cars and see what they have to say about rubber vs stainlees brake lines. Hell, check to see how many of them are running rubber lines.

 

How do you figure the brake line is like a switch, the brake levers themselves are the switch, more so a variable switch, and you think you are so experienced with braking systems and you mention that you've done them 3 times, WOA

Edited September 16, 2007 by RZBansheeMan

[John]

This is getting pretty darn silly. The stainless braided lines don't resist flexing, they are supposed to be flexible, what they do is resist swelling. When you have swelling you will have a pressure drop, plain and simple. I cannot beleive that you don't understand that with rubber lines that swell, the braking effectivness goes down. In hydraulics the fluid is always going to take the easiest path, it is much easier for the rubber line to swell than it is for the fluid to be forced thru the steel caliper and brake piston.

 

I have experienced with rubber lines, the front brake lever having to be pulled in very far with a mushy feel, rather than with stainless braided lines the lever not having to be pulled as far and having firmer feel to it and improving the brake effectiveness.

 

I don't know what kind of racing experience you have, but take a look at all the nascars, indy cars, super bikes, funny cars or whatever kind of big drag cars and see what they have to say about rubber vs stainlees brake lines. Hell, check to see how many of them are running rubber lines.

 

How do you figure the brake line is like a switch, the brake levers themselves are the switch, more so a variable switch, and you think you are so experienced with braking systems and you mention that you've done them 3 times, WOA

 

3 race only brake setups, changing brakes, I lost count. I am not arguing that stainless brake lines don't increase the effectiveness of the brakes. If you actually read my posts it says it over and over again. Actually to correct myself the brake pedal or lever is the switch, the line carries the input to the system. My arguement is that stainless brake lines DO NOT DECREASE BRAKE DISTANCES. They will allow you to have maximum brake power for longer period times.... is that not correct. I agree with you 100% on brake lines and their use, I am only stating they will not change your braking distances. I have been on rides for a long time and feel the lever get mushy. I am a firm believer in stainless lines, I use them on my cars on the fuel system, clutch and brakes. If you did a test to check distances on two bikes one with stainless lines, and the other with rubber, they would have the same distance, however the stainless lines will have a more firm and linear feel. If you ran 5 laps on a mx track, I can see your braking efficiency being lower with rubber lines because the lines will swell. I am starting to believe everyone is misunderstanding me or maybe everyone believes they do reduce distances. You guys can continue to argue and debate and possibly bash me. I am done with this thread.

[chevy7398]

i bet he bought the pink power band too!!!

[RZBansheeMan]

3 race only brake setups, changing brakes, I lost count. I am not arguing that stainless brake lines don't increase the effectiveness of the brakes. If you actually read my posts it says it over and over again. Actually to correct myself the brake pedal or lever is the switch, the line carries the input to the system. My arguement is that stainless brake lines DO NOT DECREASE BRAKE DISTANCES. They will allow you to have maximum brake power for longer period times.... is that not correct. I agree with you 100% on brake lines and their use, I am only stating they will not change your braking distances. I have been on rides for a long time and feel the lever get mushy. I am a firm believer in stainless lines, I use them on my cars on the fuel system, clutch and brakes. If you did a test to check distances on two bikes one with stainless lines, and the other with rubber, they would have the same distance, however the stainless lines will have a more firm and linear feel. If you ran 5 laps on a mx track, I can see your braking efficiency being lower with rubber lines because the lines will swell. I am starting to believe everyone is misunderstanding me or maybe everyone believes they do reduce distances. You guys can continue to argue and debate and possibly bash me. I am done with this thread.

 

Well, maybe it was just more of a misunderstanding than anything else. seems like we are on the same page as for the brake line discussion.

 

As for decreased braking distances, I believe there are lots of variables, from increased rotor size, multiple piston calipers, ceramic pads, suspension set up, tire design, surface conditions.

[.]

a stainless line WILL stop you in a shorter distance than a rubber line that swells, plain and simple.

 

Think of it this way, say you are in your car, and a light turns yellow on you, and you have to apply your brakes kind of hard, but not slamming on them, you are varying the pressure going through the line. If you come to the same light, and hit your brakes as hard as you can, and the lines flex, the same thing is happening to a degree, and your stopping distance is affected.

 

If you come to the same light with stainless lines, and hit your brakes as hard as you can, your calipers will receive full clamping pressure and stop the vehicle quicker.

 

There are lots of variables outside of this including tire slippage, rotor heating and glazing, fluid temperatures and much more, but given that their would be no tire slippage, and the brake system can keep up and react uniformly with the only change being between the stainless lines, and a swelling rubber line, the stainless line WILL stop you in a shorter distance.

 

And its not a fight against rubber and steel really, because you can build a 3 inch thick rubber line that wont flex either, but we are talking about a shitty ass yamaha rubber line thats about a 1/16th of an inch thicker than a balloon lining.