lockout

[Boston Racing]

The question I posed is probably best answered by Kevin. FYI: a simple load profile for a chassis dynamometer is usually speed (road, rolls, engine, etc.) vs. torque (absorber, crankshaft, road, trans. output shaft, etc.)

 

I would just assume not talk about DynoJet's inertia brake dyno's. You would be better off writing down a bunch of speed and torque numbers, cutting them up into separate pieces of paper in a hat, and everytime you wanted to test something on a the dyno, just grab a piece of paper out of that. That's about as accurate and repeatable as those things get (I exagerate a bit, but not much). :geek:

 

 

If you are really wanting to know the inner workings and how Kevin did everything why dont you call him like he suggested earlier in the post. He has way too much stuff to do to explain all the aspects of his design or how he is testing it to you.( i am amazed he has been willing to so thus far) When they hit the market you can buy one and spend your time analyzing it. You dont need an engineering degree to know if something works or not.

 

 

 

You can add and remove weight from his lockup just like other lockups to adjust it. But with the weights that will be standard it is holding more tq than 90% of the bikes out there it is desighned for. If you have a really high HP or TQ bike Kevin can get you one setup for that as well.

[McCoy's Performance]

What about adjustability? All we are looking for in lockout adjustability, is this: How can we make this thing hold the torque we are making? Either the clutch is slipping and not transferring the power out that is coming in, or the clutch is failing prematurely because it's barley able to hold the power when the components are all new, but starts slipping as soon as there is some wear. So yes, we want adjustment; if the current setup slips, then we want to add weight to the pivot arms to force to clutch springs. And hopefully gain enough to make the clutch hold.

 

The bottom line is this, "Will the clutch system hold the torque the motor produces?." With the GP lockout we are holding more torque. So you don't adjust it...lol The effectiveness can be reduced by removing the # of balls that are in it.

 

I don't have the numbers in front of me, but just from memory here's a sample:

A new stock Banshee clutch will hold about 32ft lbs of torque on our dyno.

A stk banshee clutch with Barnett springs will hold about 36ft lbs of torque.

A Barnett complete clutch kit holds about 40ft lbs of torque.

A Toomey complete clutch kit holds about 52ft lbs of torque.

A Toomey w/ Direct Drive lockout holds about 60 ft lbs of torque at 7000rpm

 

Then we can increase the holding power by more spring pressure, and adding weight to the lockout arms.

 

With a 7 disc clutch, it is very difficult, even utilizing every trick we know of, to get it to hold over 70 lbs of torque. Unless we go to overdrive primary gears. Then we have had to go to an 8 disc system, and we have held torque in the mid 80s at 7000rpm.

 

Where do we go next? We have to get either more clutch surface area (add more discs), or more pressure (stronger spring and/or more powerful lockout).

 

The GP lockout has already held well over 100ft lbs of torque @ 7000rpm, and we haven't found the slip-point yet.... :biggrin:

Edited July 9, 2007 by McCoy's Performance

[Boston Racing]

Ok...so my first question about this clutch, then...

 

ON the standard arm type lockup, you can change and/or remove weights to fine tune it.

 

How would this clutch be fine tuned? Different weighted ball bearings. I'm assuming you can't remove them...or can you?

 

 

You can add or remove balls as well as switch to different weight balls. The standard one that will go out with the kit is holding 104tq, How much more holding power are you needing. I hope to go back down there soon and bump that 104tq up. My bike is still on Gas.

[McCoy's Performance]

The Dyno jet has very good repeatability. But the inertia dynos have some limitations for sure. You can purchase an eddy current "load cell" for the inertia Dynojets. :biggrin: And it is then much easier to do some testing. But most do not have them. And so the tuner is forced to alter gear ratios to change the load.

[dajogejr]

You can add or remove balls as well as switch to different weight balls. The standard one that will go out with the kit is holding 104tq, How much more holding power are you needing. I hope to go back down there soon and bump that 104tq up. My bike is still on Gas.

 

I wish I had the problem of 104 tq...

 

I wasn't asking IF it could hold it, I'll take Nate's word for it...

But even on Direct Drive's site, it mentions tuning their lockup via weights...and I was wondering what the equivalent to Kevin's design was...that's all.

 

We all know what happens on the dyno doesn't always equate to what happens at the track.

 

Nate...and Boston...

You guys ever tune the lockups to allow a little more slippage out of the hole...while still allowing locking up down the track at higher speeds?

[GP racerX]

FYI: floks around here don't seem to like Trinity much. I personally have no problem with them, though I have never has any work done to anything of mine by them, but I have bought several items there, though it has always been in-person.

 

As for the programable C02 Actuator, is it similair to one that Pingel sells? I believe there is also a road racing bike shop (possibly with some sort of Italian name) from Florida that also sells something like that. I am not saying that to take anything away from yours, but those are the two that I am familiar with. With yours, you should be able to control the the valve(s) (if it down shift too) with one of the outputs from the Motec box. If my crappy memeory serves me, the Motec M4 has two fully porgrammable outputs (it has been way too many years since I have fooled with one of those)?

 

Without spending an extra week on the load case in Cosmos, I suppose that is the best a guy can do. I would be curious as to how the balls striking the end of their races and briefly rebounding has an effect of the system. Friction on the balls should really only effect the delta of pressure between associated with transient torque application, which is porbably not a big deal unless a rider has to back pedal mid-run.

 

You still haven't told me how your clutch is adjustable (maybe I missed it (reference: my crappy memory)).

 

What I am interested in, that you mention previously, is that you have seen the inside of a Rekluse / Z-Start clutch. I haven't wanted to see the inside of one of those for awhile. One of my old employees bought one for his Suzuki Z450 awhile ago and wouldn't let me take it apart to look inside (I guess I wouldn't either if I had just spent $550 on it and didn't care what was inside). He did let me hold it though and it did not sound like a maracca. Assuming there are balls in there like in your clutch, what else is in there that makes it not sound like a maracca? Also the Rekluse unit is adjustable by an active rider with an optional gizmo that appears to change the ramp angle for the weights in their unit (this also falls into the category of things that I think are over complicated). I am correct in my assumption about the Rekluse unit with respect to that?

 

 

I belive the zstart on the rekluse changes the stall speed of the clutch by adjusting a spring on the clutch cable thus raising or lowering the engagement force

The only diference between a rekluse/revlock and my lockup is that on them the bearings are driven by the outer clutch basket thus spinning with the crank all the time. As the rev's go up the clutch starts to engage automaticly. By putting the ball bearings on the innerhub it only spins when you let out the cluch...same as a convential lockup.

 

You can adust the lockup pressure by changing # of balls, the spring presure, and the density of the balls. You can change them while its on the bike by setting the bike on it side and removing the top plate. There is room for 2 rows of 3/8balls on the banshee for a total of 58

 

It not a highly "tunable" lockup but thats not its design intent. It is to stop clutch slipping so as long as you have enough lockup pressure to do that than there is no need to tune it further.

[Boston Racing]

I wish I had the problem of 104 tq...

 

I wasn't asking IF it could hold it, I'll take Nate's word for it...

But even on Direct Drive's site, it mentions tuning their lockup via weights...and I was wondering what the equivalent to Kevin's design was...that's all.

 

We all know what happens on the dyno doesn't always equate to what happens at the track.

 

Nate...and Boston...

You guys ever tune the lockups to allow a little more slippage out of the hole...while still allowing locking up down the track at higher speeds?

 

My track experiance is really limited, I am a Hill racer. The closest track is 4 hours away from me.

[GP racerX]

You guys ever tune the lockups to allow a little more slippage out of the hole...while still allowing locking up down the track at higher speeds?

 

 

You could do that with this setup by using softer springs and more weight just the same as any lockup

[dajogejr]

Thanks for the info....appreciate it.

 

Do you have these ready for production? Pricing info on these?

[GP racerX]

The question I posed is probably best answered by Kevin. FYI: a simple load profile for a chassis dynamometer is usually speed (road, rolls, engine, etc.) vs. torque (absorber, crankshaft, road, trans. output shaft, etc.)

 

I would just assume not talk about DynoJet's inertia brake dyno's. You would be better off writing down a bunch of speed and torque numbers, cutting them up into separate pieces of paper in a hat, and everytime you wanted to test something on a the dyno, just grab a piece of paper out of that. That's about as accurate and repeatable as those things get (I exagerate a bit, but not much).

 

 

I use a standard load of 5-8 sec from say 6000 to 11000 rpm so its a time over speed control

I also use a load over distance control to simulate a dragrace you start at a very low speed and accelerate through the gears while there is a fixed eddy current load and the dyno records the time it take to cover the distance.

That article in Superflow newsletter was referring to how we used their drive cycle load to simulate the condition going up Pikes Peak on our quads.

What we did is take the max mph that was ran the year before to get an idea of how much load to apply to mach that mph

The Superflow will add load as the mph go up to simulate wind drag, granted its crude and doesn

[FireHead]

If you are really wanting to know the inner workings and how Kevin did everything why dont you call him like he suggested earlier in the post. He has way too much stuff to do to explain all the aspects of his design or how he is testing it to you.( i am amazed he has been willing to so thus far) When they hit the market you can buy one and spend your time analyzing it. You dont need an engineering degree to know if something works or not.

You can add and remove weight from his lockup just like other lockups to adjust it. But with the weights that will be standard it is holding more tq than 90% of the bikes out there it is desighned for. If you have a really high HP or TQ bike Kevin can get you one setup for that as well.

 

Wow, this thread gained alot of content today! I'm impressed.

 

Boston Racing, I have a few points to cover:

 

1.) I agree that you do not have to have an engineering degree to tell if some thing works or not.

2.) I was really interest in what Kevin had seen inside the Rekluse unit as I has wanted to look inside one of those since they came out.

3.) Kevin should feel free to share as much or as little as he wants to about his clutch design. It's his work, that's the way it should be. He has obviously put alot of thought into it.

4.)This particular repsonse on of yours is very Planet Sand'esque IMO. Past my initial rant, it is obvious that Kevin has something that works or he wouldn't sell it. My reservation was that "testing" is a term widely thrown around, especially in this industry and I was trying to figure out if there was data behind some of the claims Nate was making on Kevin's behalf or if it was "broken or not broken" sort of testing regime. Generally, broken are not broken sells parts, but as far as my interest went, I wanted to learn if there were numbers behind that or not.

5.) I didn't call Kevin just to bs about his stuff as I didn't want him to feel I was wasting his time, as I really wasn't in the market for such things at the moment and if he wasn't selling something to me, I didn't think it was worth his time. :geek:

[WALLACE84]

This is the energizer bunny thread. Damn lol

[FireHead]

I use a standard load of 5-8 sec from say 6000 to 11000 rpm so its a time over speed control

I also use a load over distance control to simulate a dragrace you start at a very low speed and accelerate through the gears while there is a fixed eddy current load and the dyno records the time it take to cover the distance.

That article in Superflow newsletter was referring to how we used their drive cycle load to simulate the condition going up Pikes Peak on our quads.

What we did is take the max mph that was ran the year before to get an idea of how much load to apply to mach that mph

The Superflow will add load as the mph go up to simulate wind drag, granted its crude and doesn

[FireHead]

It not a highly "tunable" lockup but thats not its design intent. It is to stop clutch slipping so as long as you have enough lockup pressure to do that than there is no need to tune it further.

I gathered that. I only said something about it as I thought Nate was comparing it to a "traditional" lockup setup in manner that might lead someone to believe the level ofadjustability was the same. Personally, I am of the opinion that if the design is sophisticated enough, then you only need to be adjustable enough to cover the uncontrollable variables (heat, humidity, etc.). :thumbsup:

[FireHead]

The Dyno jet has very good repeatability. But the inertia dynos have some limitations for sure. You can purchase an eddy current "load cell" for the inertia Dynojets. :biggrin: And it is then much easier to do some testing. But most do not have them. And so the tuner is forced to alter gear ratios to change the load.

An inertia brake dyno in general is only as accurate or repeatable as the the control of the temperature of it's environment. DynoJets are particularly crappy as all of there DAQ software is based around the factory calibration and balance numbers for the flywheel. If you are outside the temperture of which the calibration occurred (I belive is 20 degrees C) then you really don't know what you have as far as results go. Beyond that the temperature of the wheel changes during a run, thus leading to their inaccuracy and lack of ability to repeat (granted they are probably still better than a friction brake dyno, but atleast you can recalibrate it's load cell to compensate for the condition of it's clutch pack) which also leads to their infamous nick name as "DynoGuess." As I discussed earlier, a DynoJet dyno has it's niche in the industry and you can't argue with their revenue generatikon potential, but a serious person probably wouldn't bother with them. The serious person thing was part of something someone, who is a far greater name in my industry than I am, to a group of college engineering students. The parting shot was that he likened doing serious work with a DynoJet to playing the lottery as an investment. The idea being both can work, but you'll spend alot of time and effort having it not work and winning a little here and there. I'm not sure if that was worth sharing, but I kind of liked it. :biggrin: