lockout

[FireHead]

Um....I just don't know what to say....

 

:yelrotflmao: :yelrotflmao: :yelrotflmao:

 

:whistling:

I suppose that would be why it's not a good idea to post to forums via a Blackberry. You really don't a good shot a proof reading your posts out loud first. :biggrin:

[GP racerX]

I am curious about how you are testing these clutchs (not asshole curoious). I know how I have done it and how the rest of my industry does it, but I suspect it's out of your guys budget range. Other than broken/not broken testing a chassis dyno how you guys qualifying your components against a traditional lockout? Do you guys have any break away torque numbers or possibly fade numbers? What temperatures are you guys seeing at the steels? I am sure I have more nerdy questions, but for now I have to go get on an airplane. :geek:

 

I designed the clutch in solidworks and spent quite a bit of time analizing it with Cosmos works on the FEA part

Also did some simple speadsheet calculations using cetripital force

and yes the old fashoin way of testing it on the dyno and at the hill and track

 

 

You might like to know why I designed the clutch the way I did. It was out of nessesity, The TRX has a wimpy little clutch with only 5 spring bosses and smaller diameter than the banshee, plus it is forward kicking so the conventional lock up requires an extended kick starter shaft which adds to the cost, not to mention the added leverage on the shaft sticking out and combined with the 95mm bore piston sometime results in bent shafts.

Anyway the turbo saber was test project bike to explore the limits to CP

[GP racerX]

That cover looks like it is 1/16" sheet metal!! Look how far away the cover bolts are from the outer edge!! I wonder what the weight of the 50 metal balls will be when spun to 9500 RPM and the cover peels back to release all that stored "energy"??

 

The plate is .125" AR400 steel

Just for your info on banshee spinning at 11000 rpm the balls are travleing at about 80ft/sec or 55mph Just for th record I could throw one faster than that but yes the will tear stuff up the same way a regular lockup does when it come apart

[FireHead]

I designed the clutch in solidworks and spent quite a bit of time analizing it with Cosmos works on the FEA part

Also did some simple speadsheet calculations using cetripital force

and yes the old fashoin way of testing it on the dyno and at the hill and track

You might like to know why I designed the clutch the way I did. It was out of nessesity, The TRX has a wimpy little clutch with only 5 spring bosses and smaller diameter than the banshee, plus it is forward kicking so the conventional lock up requires an extended kick starter shaft which adds to the cost, not to mention the added leverage on the shaft sticking out and combined with the 95mm bore piston sometime results in bent shafts.

Anyway the turbo saber was test project bike to explore the limits to CP

[Bansh-eman]

..............and now the shuttle is here to take me home from the airport. I will post anything else I come with that is mildly intelligible later this evening.

its about time! get home and make some mounts!!!

[FireHead]

its about time! get home and make some mounts!!!

I'll be all over it like a monkey on a football tomorrow. I have had a long day, but I did drain my compressor and get it fired up tonight, so I'll have air tomorrow (I am pretty sure I am making your hangers at my house). :ermm:

[GP racerX]

Ok, so now i have more questions:

 

1.) What did you use for a load case in Cosmos?

2.) What is the weight of your lockup assembly?

3.) I sort of figured a few of the reasons you designed the thing the way you did, though I have only ever owned on 250R. Did you consider a secondary slipper clutch on the transmission output shaft of the transmission?

..............and now the shuttle is here to take me home from the airport. I will post anything else I come with that is mildly intelligible later this evening.

I used a static load at point contacts were the balls will touch to test the deflection of the top plate

I figured since the balls are not realy moving in relation to the plate once they strike it would be close enough

It not as accurate because it doesnt take in account friction or the change in gravity as the balls swing in a circle.

 

The clutch assembly is 680grams 50 steels...

I ran as much spring as I possibly get in it and it held about 100hp...

 

You might be interested in my new CO2 powered programable actuator Its what i am working on now for the big turbo tripple caracal that Trinity is building :ninja:

Edited July 7, 2007 by GP racerX

[FireHead]

I used a static load at point contacts were the balls will touch to test the deflection of the top plate

I figured since the balls are not realy moving in relation to the plate once they strike it would be close enough

It not as accurate because it doesnt take in account friction or the change in gravity as the balls swing in a circle.

 

The clutch assembly is 680grams 50 steels...

I ran as much spring as I possibly get in it and it held about 100hp...

 

You might be interested in my new CO2 powered programable actuator Its what i am working on now for the big turbo tripple caracal that Trinity is building :ninja:

FYI: floks around here don't seem to like Trinity much. I personally have no problem with them, though I have never has any work done to anything of mine by them, but I have bought several items there, though it has always been in-person.

 

As for the programable C02 Actuator, is it similair to one that Pingel sells? I believe there is also a road racing bike shop (possibly with some sort of Italian name) from Florida that also sells something like that. I am not saying that to take anything away from yours, but those are the two that I am familiar with. With yours, you should be able to control the the valve(s) (if it down shift too) with one of the outputs from the Motec box. If my crappy memeory serves me, the Motec M4 has two fully porgrammable outputs (it has been way too many years since I have fooled with one of those)?

 

Without spending an extra week on the load case in Cosmos, I suppose that is the best a guy can do. I would be curious as to how the balls striking the end of their races and briefly rebounding has an effect of the system. Friction on the balls should really only effect the delta of pressure between associated with transient torque application, which is porbably not a big deal unless a rider has to back pedal mid-run.

 

You still haven't told me how your clutch is adjustable (maybe I missed it (reference: my crappy memory)).

 

What I am interested in, that you mention previously, is that you have seen the inside of a Rekluse / Z-Start clutch. I haven't wanted to see the inside of one of those for awhile. One of my old employees bought one for his Suzuki Z450 awhile ago and wouldn't let me take it apart to look inside (I guess I wouldn't either if I had just spent $550 on it and didn't care what was inside). He did let me hold it though and it did not sound like a maracca. Assuming there are balls in there like in your clutch, what else is in there that makes it not sound like a maracca? Also the Rekluse unit is adjustable by an active rider with an optional gizmo that appears to change the ramp angle for the weights in their unit (this also falls into the category of things that I think are over complicated). I am correct in my assumption about the Rekluse unit with respect to that?

[WALLACE84]

Any of trinitys porting or their 2-1 carb setups are what I dont like about them. Btw, GP racerX, thats a badass 250r man!!

[Boston Racing]

This forum is for product reviews so let me provide one.

 

 

I was at GPracerX's shop last week and we installed one of his new lockups. So here is a review. Keep in mind this is not a production unit and I dont believe that Kevin is selling them just yet.

 

Installation:

 

Really no different that a regular Lockup, other than installing the ball bearing which took less than 5 minutes. ( If you lose one, your local hardware store has them)

 

First Startup:

 

No "marracca" sounds. It seem no different sounding than a normal motor. I turned it over slow to see if I could hear anything and did not.

 

 

Performance:

 

This lockup held 175hp and 104tq with no slippage, not even with the initial nitrous hit. It was making 104tq at 6500 rpm so the lockup held even under low RPM. This was on my GP Engineering Fuel injected, Nitrous, 18mm McCoy Cheetah DM. We made several passes on it with no slippage or fading.

 

Overall impression:

 

Very Impressed, but I have never been dissappointed with Kevins work. Like his other products this is amazing. The numbers dont lie...It works and his final production ones will fit under a stock cover with no modifications, just bolt it on and go. I dont understand all the physics involved but I know it works.

[FireHead]

This forum is for product reviews so let me provide one.

I was at GPracerX's shop last week and we installed one of his new lockups. So here is a review. Keep in mind this is not a production unit and I dont believe that Kevin is selling them just yet.

 

Installation:

 

Really no different that a regular Lockup, other than installing the ball bearing which took less than 5 minutes. ( If you lose one, your local hardware store has them)

 

First Startup:

 

No "marracca" sounds. It seem no different sounding than a normal motor. I turned it over slow to see if I could hear anything and did not.

Performance:

 

This lockup held 175hp and 104tq with no slippage, not even with the initial nitrous hit. It was making 104tq at 6500 rpm so the lockup held even under low RPM. This was on my GP Engineering Fuel injected, Nitrous, 18mm McCoy Cheetah DM. We made several passes on it with no slippage or fading.

 

Overall impression:

 

Very Impressed, but I have never been dissappointed with Kevins work. Like his other products this is amazing. The numbers dont lie...It works and his final production ones will fit under a stock cover with no modifications, just bolt it on and go. I dont understand all the physics involved but I know it works.

Was this on a dyno, asphalt, sand, concrete , formica, or other? I don't know much about the bike either. Other than what you stated previously, what is going on in it? :geek:

[McCoy's Performance]

Was this on a Dyno, asphalt, sand, concrete , formica, or other? I don't know much about the bike either. Other than what you stated previously, what is going on in it? :geek:

I am sure that the initial test was on the Dyno with a significant load. Likely 5000 to 10,000rpm in 6 sec. (That would be a load like testing with a dynojet with gearing to do about 250mph at the top of the run...lol)

Then "skinny" Boston took it to the sand, and that was a load test...hehehe Actually he's not that big, maybe 220lbs? And 14p extremes running in the sand geared to do 100mph, and using it all in 300ft.

[dajogejr]

Ok...so my first question about this clutch, then...

 

ON the standard arm type lockup, you can change and/or remove weights to fine tune it.

 

How would this clutch be fine tuned? Different weighted ball bearings. I'm assuming you can't remove them...or can you?

[FireHead]

Ok...so my first question about this clutch, then...

 

ON the standard arm type lockup, you can change and/or remove weights to fine tune it.

 

How would this clutch be fine tuned? Different weighted ball bearings. I'm assuming you can't remove them...or can you?

I have asked this very same question, atleast three times now, and still haven't gotten an answer.

 

I think you can remove and replace the balls, but I am not sure if you can do that on the bike or not. Then, within reason how many different size balls are there that will work in the clutch and what is the max and min. effective weight and lockup time that this affords you? :geek:

[FireHead]

I am sure that the initial test was on the Dyno with a significant load. Likely 5000 to 10,000rpm in 6 sec. (That would be a load like testing with a dynojet with gearing to do about 250mph at the top of the run...lol)

Then "skinny" Boston took it to the sand, and that was a load test...hehehe Actually he's not that big, maybe 220lbs? And 14p extremes running in the sand geared to do 100mph, and using it all in 300ft.

 

The question I posed is probably best answered by Kevin. FYI: a simple load profile for a chassis dynamometer is usually speed (road, rolls, engine, etc.) vs. torque (absorber, crankshaft, road, trans. output shaft, etc.)

 

I would just assume not talk about DynoJet's inertia brake dyno's. You would be better off writing down a bunch of speed and torque numbers, cutting them up into separate pieces of paper in a hat, and everytime you wanted to test something on a the dyno, just grab a piece of paper out of that. That's about as accurate and repeatable as those things get (I exagerate a bit, but not much). :geek: