eagle Posted April 5, 2007 Report Share Posted April 5, 2007 I am looking to see what is entailed in the override transmission mods. I am looking to do this myself. I was part designer in a sequential transmission and own a cnc machine shop so I have a solid grasp on the fundamentals but not sure exactly what is being done. I am very familiar with undercutting gears to allow them to stay in gear better but the undercut alone does nothing for the shifting without the clutch thing. Am I missing an entrance angle on the cog or is there a rotary mod on the shift drum? Can anyone produce actual pictures of the modded gear or shift drum?? I chatted with the guys at Mull Engineering about it and they said most guys are not rehardening the gears after mods so they will wear much faster after mods. I can certainly understand that but how long would they last without the hardened faces on the cogs?? Thanks for any help or pics you can offer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle Posted April 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2007 I am looking to see what is entailed in the override transmission mods. I am looking to do this myself. I was part designer in a sequential transmission and own a cnc machine shop so I have a solid grasp on the fundamentals but not sure exactly what is being done. I am very familiar with undercutting gears to allow them to stay in gear better but the undercut alone does nothing for the shifting without the clutch thing. Am I missing an entrance angle on the cog or is there a rotary mod on the shift drum? Can anyone produce actual pictures of the modded gear or shift drum?? I chatted with the guys at Mull Engineering about it and they said most guys are not rehardening the gears after mods so they will wear much faster after mods. I can certainly understand that but how long would they last without the hardened faces on the cogs?? Thanks for any help or pics you can offer. Also, very curious about this dunable and nondunable stuff. I road and override banshee years ago and was told not to chop the throttle until I got to 5th or it would shell the tranny. I have no idea on that one. Any help would be appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle Posted April 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2007 Also, very curious about this dunable and nondunable stuff. I road and override banshee years ago and was told not to chop the throttle until I got to 5th or it would shell the tranny. I have no idea on that one. Any help would be appreciated. Wow, can no one help with my override questions? Does anyone happen to have an override on the table they can post pictures of? That might just help. thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer Posted April 6, 2007 Report Share Posted April 6, 2007 The only guy I know of on here that has done one himself is a machinist by the call of boonman. I dont remember who it was for either. I just remember him eating up a lot of tooling doing it. Maybe he was only using HSS instead of M-42 or carbide. But those gears are real fucking hard, so good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle Posted April 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2007 The only guy I know of on here that has done one himself is a machinist by the call of boonman. I dont remember who it was for either. I just remember him eating up a lot of tooling doing it. Maybe he was only using HSS instead of M-42 or carbide. But those gears are real fucking hard, so good luck. Yeah, we are expecting a rockwell of 50 or better and plan to implement our diamond tooling for the job. I just need to see what the fuss is about with them. Are they common among riders or is this for just the drag racing guys? I would think it would be a great mod for any type of riding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireHead Posted April 6, 2007 Report Share Posted April 6, 2007 I am looking to see what is entailed in the override transmission mods. I am looking to do this myself. I was part designer in a sequential transmission and own a cnc machine shop so I have a solid grasp on the fundamentals but not sure exactly what is being done. I am very familiar with undercutting gears to allow them to stay in gear better but the undercut alone does nothing for the shifting without the clutch thing. Am I missing an entrance angle on the cog or is there a rotary mod on the shift drum? Can anyone produce actual pictures of the modded gear or shift drum?? I chatted with the guys at Mull Engineering about it and they said most guys are not rehardening the gears after mods so they will wear much faster after mods. I can certainly understand that but how long would they last without the hardened faces on the cogs?? Thanks for any help or pics you can offer. I am not sure if it is worth your time doing it yourself unless you just wanted to have fun with it. I would make sure you have a few spare practice sets of transmission parts on hand. I doubt anyone will be able to tell you exactly what to do as there do not seem to be any prints floating around for this and the bike builders all do it a little differently. I have made and modified several Banshee transmissions. I scrapped a lot of them in the process of figuring out what works as what doesn't. Mostly I just scrapped transmission parts trying to machined the carburized steel that the OEM transmission is made out of. I also had a shift drum escape out the side of a case when I had the engine on the dyno. That was probably the most expensive failure I had. Once you figure out how to machine the metal, then you will need to come up with a heat treating specification, which I believe is necessary with this modification. Most folks don't do that though. The heat treatment is not necessarily about core hardness, but it is about stress relief and surface hardness. :geek: You really need a live tooled lathe or mill/turn CNC machine to do the work up to the standards that I require. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer Posted April 6, 2007 Report Share Posted April 6, 2007 Yeah, we are expecting a rockwell of 50 or better and plan to implement our diamond tooling for the job. I just need to see what the fuss is about with them. Are they common among riders or is this for just the drag racing guys? I would think it would be a great mod for any type of riding. Rc 50 is some hard shit. I have access to a tester, just wish I had a spare gear to test. Diamond tooling would def be the way to go. I think the mod is to remove half the clutch dogs so its easier to get into gear. The downside is that this makes for a lot of slack in the gear stacks, so when you use engine braking (instead of clutching and using service brakes) its easy to shell a tranny. This is what I have heard of drag setups, unsure about duneables. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireHead Posted April 6, 2007 Report Share Posted April 6, 2007 Rc 50 is some hard shit. I have access to a tester, just wish I had a spare gear to test. Diamond tooling would def be the way to go. I think the mod is to remove half the clutch dogs so its easier to get into gear. The downside is that this makes for a lot of slack in the gear stacks, so when you use engine braking (instead of clutching and using service brakes) its easy to shell a tranny. This is what I have heard of drag setups, unsure about duneables. I am going to disagree with you regarding the diamond tooling. All you need is a fiber reinforced cermet insert. 50HRC steel is actually fairly easy to machine dependin on the alloy. The problem the Banshee transmission gives you when machining it is that the interupted cutting breaks tools (cermet tools are are fairly brittle, while diamond tooling the most brittle thing you can use) as does the surface hardness. FYI: steel that is above 62HRC is really where you start to habe problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle Posted April 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2007 I am going to disagree with you regarding the diamond tooling. All you need is a fiber reinforced cermet insert. 50HRC steel is actually fairly easy to machine dependin on the alloy. The problem the Banshee transmission gives you when machining it is that the interupted cutting breaks tools (cermet tools are are fairly brittle, while diamond tooling the most brittle thing you can use) as does the surface hardness. FYI: steel that is above 62HRC is really where you start to habe problems. Not sure where the interupted cut comes in. I was planning on using a VMC to back cut the gears. Now taking half the cog off, WTH!! That sounds like a big problem when you are already trying to force 3X the factory power through the transmission. Are there also mods to the shift drum? Why don't they just offer every gear modded instead of this 1-5, 2-5, 3-9er, does this mean they are taking gears out or those are just the gears that have been cut? We have plenty of experience cutting hard materials and I would agree that diamond will not take interupted cutting with very hard materials. We generally plan things to stay engaged in our work because diamond is worth using. Much faster and lasts a long time if you don't break it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer Posted April 6, 2007 Report Share Posted April 6, 2007 I am going to disagree with you regarding the diamond tooling. All you need is a fiber reinforced cermet insert. 50HRC steel is actually fairly easy to machine dependin on the alloy. The problem the Banshee transmission gives you when machining it is that the interupted cutting breaks tools (cermet tools are are fairly brittle, while diamond tooling the most brittle thing you can use) as does the surface hardness. I have never had any experience with cermets, cant comment. :kiss: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireHead Posted April 6, 2007 Report Share Posted April 6, 2007 Not sure where the interupted cut comes in. I was planning on using a VMC to back cut the gears. Now taking half the cog off, WTH!! That sounds like a big problem when you are already trying to force 3X the factory power through the transmission. Are there also mods to the shift drum? Why don't they just offer every gear modded instead of this 1-5, 2-5, 3-9er, does this mean they are taking gears out or those are just the gears that have been cut? We have plenty of experience cutting hard materials and I would agree that diamond will not take interupted cutting with very hard materials. We generally plan things to stay engaged in our work because diamond is worth using. Much faster and lasts a long time if you don't break it. The interuppted cutting comes from machining the gears themselves (teeth). There are also changes made to the shift drum. The guide ways are generally welded over and then remachined. I don't understand how you think your are going to back cut the gears on a VMC unless it has a horizontal fourth axis on it? There are several different configurations of override that people use. Some involve removing gears and some do not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banshee332 Posted April 6, 2007 Report Share Posted April 6, 2007 I am looking to see what is entailed in the override transmission mods. I am looking to do this myself. I was part designer in a sequential transmission and own a cnc machine shop so I have a solid grasp on the fundamentals but not sure exactly what is being done. I am very familiar with undercutting gears to allow them to stay in gear better but the undercut alone does nothing for the shifting without the clutch thing. Am I missing an entrance angle on the cog or is there a rotary mod on the shift drum? Can anyone produce actual pictures of the modded gear or shift drum?? I chatted with the guys at Mull Engineering about it and they said most guys are not rehardening the gears after mods so they will wear much faster after mods. I can certainly understand that but how long would they last without the hardened faces on the cogs?? Thanks for any help or pics you can offer. You have to shave out the drum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle Posted April 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2007 You have to shave out the drum. well this sounds like a huge compromise in reliability by using an override tranny. Do they wear out quickly? Are there any other options out there like fully automatic operation or is that too far out there? Would just seem that the override has many variables and could cost a bunch to replace which may not last long. Is there anyone here that has failed one? What happened? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireHead Posted April 7, 2007 Report Share Posted April 7, 2007 well this sounds like a huge compromise in reliability by using an override tranny. Do they wear out quickly? Are there any other options out there like fully automatic operation or is that too far out there? Would just seem that the override has many variables and could cost a bunch to replace which may not last long. Is there anyone here that has failed one? What happened? With regard to longevity, if the override is porperly used they will last just as long as an OEM transmission. If you do not have the duneable modifications made and downshift before the bike is stopped you will probably muff up the shift forks. Anything is possible with the right skill set and fundage. Any other transmission options would require special cases to be made at a minimum. For the average person, there probably aren't many other options out there. I have had several of override transmissions fail, but they were units I modified/made myself. I have had numerous down shifting related failures as well as a couple failures I can't explain (mostly because there was not much left to figure out what happened). The worst failure I had was when I had a shift drum try and escape my engine. I am still not sure how that happened. :ermm: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FadedDreams Posted April 7, 2007 Report Share Posted April 7, 2007 When i had the Rz drum and forks put in they cut every other tab on the gears.Makes it shift alot smoother and can shift under throttle alot easier.I'm not sure if Walt(Banshee370) still has his website up,but he gave a description on there about the mod,i think. I found his website,but didn't see the stuff he used to have on there. RoostFest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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