FireHead Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 I heard raw gas is lower octane and all gas that is higher in octnae has additives. Even race fuel. If not, then what is the diference between say 91 and 110? Pretty much any gasoline you buy has an additive package in it. To use pump gas as an example, you will generally find a detergent and oxygenate package in it. The oxygenate is is not like what you would find in race gas. It is there for emissions reduction. The ratio of oxygenate to fuel tends to go up due to gonernment regulations during the winter when it is cold outside. The octane rating of a fuel is a direct result of the refinement process it goes through. :thumbsup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blowit Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 Pretty much any gasoline you buy has an additive package in it. To use pump gas as an example, you will generally find a detergent and oxygenate package in it. The oxygenate is is not like what you would find in race gas. It is there for emissions reduction. The ratio of oxygenate to fuel tends to go up due to gonernment regulations during the winter when it is cold outside. The octane rating of a fuel is a direct result of the refinement process it goes through. :thumbsup: Like fire head said, all fuels will have additives. The simplest answer is this; pump fuels have additives to preserve the fuel, stabilize the fuel, and help meet EPA guidelines first. Race fuel have no additives that are not required for either preserving the fuel, or making it more powerful. By oxygenating the fuel you are adding HP in fluid form basically. Race fuel cos have found that you can only get so much O2 in fuel before it just leaks out. VP has been playing with super oxygenated fuels for racing and they were even outlawed for MX because it was offering an unfair advantage. Problem was the shelf life of the fuel was minimal. Bottom line, additives in the two types of fuels have totally different objectives. Brandon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireHead Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 Like fire head said, all fuels will have additives. The simplest answer is this; pump fuels have additives to preserve the fuel, stabilize the fuel, and help meet EPA guidelines first. Race fuel have no additives that are not required for either preserving the fuel, or making it more powerful. By oxygenating the fuel you are adding HP in fluid form basically. Race fuel cos have found that you can only get so much O2 in fuel before it just leaks out. VP has been playing with super oxygenated fuels for racing and they were even outlawed for MX because it was offering an unfair advantage. Problem was the shelf life of the fuel was minimal. Bottom line, additives in the two types of fuels have totally different objectives. Brandon I personally have an oxygenated race fuel fetish. So far the best oxygen additive I have is propylene oxide if I am blending the fuel myself. I can't remember what VP is using. :geek: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blowit Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 I personally have an oxygenated race fuel fetish. So far the best oxygen additive I have is propylene oxide if I am blending the fuel myself. I can't remember what VP is using. :geek: It's pretty cocky to have 02 fuel. Hell, that is what you are doing with NOS without the hassle. I never did try the oxygenation trick, enlighten me. How are you to know what content of O2 you have and when it depletes? This can have a major affect on jetting. I am kind of a Methyl Alky freak anyway. Cheaper and faster. Now if I could stabilize the slight acidity and hygroscopic properties, I would be the man. Brandon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireHead Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 It's pretty cocky to have 02 fuel. Hell, that is what you are doing with NOS without the hassle. I never did try the oxygenation trick, enlighten me. How are you to know what content of O2 you have and when it depletes? This can have a major affect on jetting. I am kind of a Methyl Alky freak anyway. Cheaper and faster. Now if I could stabilize the slight acidity and hygroscopic properties, I would be the man. Brandon I'll let you pick which answer you get. Would you like to know how I figure out what ratio of propylene oxide to race fuel to mix or would you like to know how one might properly do it in a labratory? If you choose to learn how I do it, you won't get a very good answer as to when the fuel cannot retain any additional oxygen. You are correct in saying that it has a great effect on jetting. I used to have an alcohol fetish prior to getting into oxygenated race fuel. I don't really do the alcohol thing much any more because I am lazy and I don't ride enough to justify dealing with the hassles of alcohol (I can't stand throwing out left over alcohol). My triple will probably wind up on alcohol, but it will initially be developed on race gas. There are some things that can be done to neutralize some of the acidity of alcohol, but you just can't do much with the hydroscopic property wxcept for running the alcohol through a water separator, which can also strip the alcohol of some additives. :geek: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajogejr Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 http://www.prestone.com/carcare/faq.php#q7 Here you go. I just grabbed the first one I saw for octane boosters. This is direct from the Prestone website. If you need more technical data, I am sure it is all over the web somewhere. Trust me, octane boosters are something, like static phase converters, that should be uninvented because it can be a scam if you don;t understand the conversions. Octane points and numbers = not the same Brandon Mull Engineering Thanks Brandon...very nice info. So....you're saying I should throw out my booster along with my flux capacitor and muffler bearing? Geez...that boost bottle is gonna be awfully lonely on that shelf by itself...LOL. Thanks again!!! :biggrin: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex! Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 I personally have an oxygenated race fuel fetish. So far the best oxygen additive I have is propylene oxide if I am blending the fuel myself. I can't remember what VP is using. :geek: LOL Is it true that it eats up aluminum? (VP oxygenated) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ojcool Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 I should have guessed you would the a person who is a fan of octane booster. :woot: Atleast your using a type of octane booster than might be worth while. I half way expected to see you claiming NOS Octane booster was giving a 70 horsepower increase. :laugh: Back to the topic at hand, I recommend that a proper racing fuel is used before any one gets out the octane booster. :thumbsup: I don't know what is in the NOS or 104 octane boosters you can buy, but I know they don't do shit. I do have a bottle of NX fuel additve that is supposed to work with your n20. they claim something like a 20% increase on the bottle. I bought a bottle to see what it would do on the dyno.. I never ended up using it though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ojcool Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 Just something you should know about octane boosters. They all say on the bottle how many "points" it will boost your octane right? The crappy thing is there are 10 octane points in 1 octane number. This means that if you have 94 octane fuel and you go spend some 5-7 bucks on a "super booster" that will give you an AMAZING 7 points of boost. Your fuel is now a whoping 94.7 octane. I would not waste the money plus, well, search from a week or so ago on why race fuels are just better any day than pump fuels. Octane boosters will never remove all the additives in you fuel. As we always say here " Don't feed a race horse snickers bars and expect to win". Your banshee is a full bread race bike, feed it what it needs. Brandon Mull Engineering I have read that alot of guys use toluene to boost octane and they are adding GALLONS of the stuff so anything that is in a little bottle and claims to boost octane is using some kind of trick to do it at best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blowit Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 I have read that alot of guys use toluene to boost octane and they are adding GALLONS of the stuff so anything that is in a little bottle and claims to boost octane is using some kind of trick to do it at best. Toluene, now we are talking but you really need to do some numbers and study up before attempting "fuel tuning". We don;t have time to mess with much custom fuel here. Alky or nothing for us. We typically will use Acetone in ours to lower the flash point in cold weather but that is about it. Brandon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireHead Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 I do have a bottle of NX fuel additve that is supposed to work with your n20. they claim something like a 20% increase on the bottle. I bought a bottle to see what it would do on the dyno.. I never ended up using it though. I am not familiar with that product. Is the product marketed as an octane booster or a fuel conditionner NOx use? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireHead Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 Toluene, now we are talking but you really need to do some numbers and study up before attempting "fuel tuning". We don;t have time to mess with much custom fuel here. Alky or nothing for us. We typically will use Acetone in ours to lower the flash point in cold weather but that is about it. Brandon Proper fuel tuning requires quite a large capitol equipment with space, personnel, and labratory equipment. There really aren't that many people who do it in the racing industry even if the particular race sanctioning body allows it. (by saying that I am fully expecting some one to come up with some sort of joke about the 2007 Daytona 500) :thumbsup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajogejr Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 (by saying that I am fully expecting some one to come up with some sort of joke about the 2007 Daytona 500) :thumbsup: We'll only crack jokes if Mr. Waltrip isn't standing behind you....turn around and look for us, please... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireHead Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 We'll only crack jokes if Mr. Waltrip isn't standing behind you....turn around and look for us, please... You can imagine what my opinion of that guy is. I posted something last night in the Daytona 500 thread in the Sports forum that might be worth a look. :thumbsup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ojcool Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 I am not familiar with that product. Is the product marketed as an octane booster or a fuel conditionner NOx use? It's for N20 use. The bottle I have is older than what the link goes to. But it's the same stuff. Obviously it has some kind of secret ingredient they wont disclose. Nothing on the bottle saying whats in it either.. I wanted to see what it did on a dyno but I never got around to it. Don't have a nitrous car to try it on anymore. NX Link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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