Mullet Man Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 W/o re-reading the post I believe he said if any amount of "alcohol" is used the system needs to be purged. thats odd. i have been around Turbo Buicks for many years now. for a long time they have been using Xylene, Toulene and Methanol mixtures with 93 octane. never once have i read of them purging their systems. they even have online diagrams of how much to use to obtain certian ratings and such with whatever combination all different engine combos too, iron block/heads, iron block/alum heads, alum block/alum heads. they also add ATF (automatic trans fluid) to the combination for lubricity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooker82 Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 I am not for sure about this but Ethanol (Ethyl alcohol) might not be as corrosive to aluminum as methanol is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireHead Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 hey Firehead, when do you go find out about that job? I am going to have to call and massage the CEO a bit tomorrow. I am learning that it gets to be harder to get a job, even if they want to hire you, the higher up the executive ladder you get. Corporate racing is a weird world. :thumbsup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireHead Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 thats odd.i have been around Turbo Buicks for many years now. for a long time they have been using Xylene, Toulene and Methanol mixtures with 93 octane. never once have i read of them purging their systems. they even have online diagrams of how much to use to obtain certian ratings and such with whatever combination all different engine combos too, iron block/heads, iron block/alum heads, alum block/alum heads. they also add ATF (automatic trans fluid) to the combination for lubricity Mullet Man........great post! Let me see what I can do to add to it a bit. In regards to Xylene and Toluene they are another can of worms that I am going to hold off opening unless we need to. To touch upon alcohol in the Buicks you spoke you are 99.9% correct. Since a four stroke engine has it's own oil supply seperate from it's fuel supply there does not need to be much special done to the motor to run alcohol besides the obvious fuel and ignition maps, and larger injectors (assuming fuel injection) or jets (assuming carbureation). What you may notice is being done is that they are not leaving fuel in their tanks at the end of the weekend to avoid having a tank of bad fuel on the next time out. The other thing that is done is that they change their oil alot more frequently than you might with a normal road going car engine. This is because the alcohol meets the oil on the cylinder wall ans effectively washes them down, thus dilluting the oil and extremely shortening it's service life. Now if we are talking about drag racing, which is what I am assuming we are talking about then you may have the same oil change interval whether you are running on gas or acohol due to the increase in cylinder pressures in the gas engine blowing by alot more unburned fuel into the oil, which also dillutes it. As far as the bi-metal or tri-metal motors that you speak of not making any difference to the corrosion problem you are probably right in respect to the vehicles you have experience with. Properly designed fuel systems for alcohol use really won't suffer any damage from prolonged contact with the fuel. The only real risk that you run as mentioned behore is the fuel going bad from water absorption. The worst thing you would see in that sort of fuel system might be corrosion on the aluminum, but it's not that much (think of anodizing) in the scheme of things. THere is a point where aluminum will not corrode past a certain point if the surface of the aluminum was sufficiently covered in layers of corrosion. In regards to the ATF being used in fuel.............I have no idea. What some of the old hot rodders may be familiar with is that when ATF is introduced to hot crabon deposits inside and engine it shatters them. Thus, folks use to use it to clean their fuel systems. I'll ask around about it at work and see if anyone has any idea about what folks are actually doing with this idea. :thumbsup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireHead Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 I am not for sure about this but Ethanol (Ethyl alcohol) might not be as corrosive to aluminum as methanol is. Let me catch the last couple posts in this thread: 1.) If you run any sort of alcohol 60/40, 50/50, or whatever, you will need to purge the system in a two stroke engine. 2.) In regards to ethanol or methanol and one being more corrosive than the other, I suspect it is about the same. Galvanic corrosion (chemical leeching of water below the surface of metal (process is similair to the way acetone carries molecules of whatever is suspended in it below human skin)) would be the same with either fuel. Feel free to blow me out of the water on this one. There may be a reaction other than this that the fuel aids. I would have to get a book out for sure, and it's to late for that tonight. :thumbsup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooker82 Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 In regards to the ATF being used in fuel.............I have no idea. What some of the old hot rodders may be familiar with is that when ATF is introduced to hot crabon deposits inside and engine it shatters them. Thus, folks use to use it to clean their fuel systems. I'll ask around about it at work and see if anyone has any idea about what folks are actually doing with this idea. :thumbsup: I bet they used it as a Upper Cylinder Lubercant. Manhattan Oil Company sells some stuff that is supose to help protect against cylinder wash down that mehtanol causes. Top Lube LINK Specially formulated for methanol use, Manhattan Oil's line of Top Lubes is recognized as the number one selling product in its category. Customers enjoy reduced friction and better protection from corrosion associated with the use of methanol fuel. Many top engine builders, carburetor builders and injection system suppliers use and recommended these products. Five versions are offered that have the same lubricating properties but vary in features such as color, scent and name. The scented Top Lubes contain a low dose of fragrance and in order to get the full impact it is recommended that you use a bottle of Fuel Fragrance in combination with the Top Lube of your choice. They also make a fuel fragrence. Ever been to a circle track race and smelled some kind of fruit smell after all the cars went by. It is probably this stuff. Around here Grape is what most people use. Fuel Fragrance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireHead Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 I bet they used it as a Upper Cylinder Lubercant. Manhattan Oil Company sells some stuff that is supose to help protect against cylinder wash down that mehtanol causes.Top Lube LINK They also make a fuel fragrence. Ever been to a circle track race and smelled some kind of fruit smell after all the cars went by. It is probably this stuff. Around here Grape is what most people use. Fuel Fragrance I enjoy running the fuel fragrence when I am running an alcohol type fuel. I know it's kind of gay, but I swear it makes it so that your eyes don't water as much. Orange and strawberry are my favorites so far. :thumbsup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooker82 Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 I enjoy running the fuel fragrence when I am running an alcohol type fuel. I know it's kind of gay, but I swear it makes it so that your eyes don't water as much. Orange and strawberry are my favorites so far. :thumbsup: That is exactly what it is supose to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireHead Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 That is exactly what it is supose to do. Yeah, I was just amazed how well it masked the fumes. It's too bad they don't sell a pre-scented fuel that would be credible to use at my work. Some of the lat nights when is humid outside can be torture if you are near our dyno's whether you are inside the building or outside the building. :thumbsup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooker82 Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 Have you tried the grape yet. It is my favorite. :thumbsup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireHead Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 Have you tried the grape yet. It is my favorite. :thumbsup: No, I will have to try it. There are something like 50 different scents available and it is going to take me along time to work my way through all of them. The bubble gum is the only one that I have smeeled for far that I didn't like. :thumbsup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mullet Man Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 any word/more info? i'll go over to turbobuick.com and dig up some fuel threads. some very good info over there about whats what. they dont fuck around when it comes to fuel. knock and 25+psi just dont mesh very well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireHead Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 any word/more info? i'll go over to turbobuick.com and dig up some fuel threads. some very good info over there about whats what. they dont fuck around when it comes to fuel. knock and 25+psi just dont mesh very well I forgot about this thread. I don't recall asking anyone one about the ATF thing. Was I supposed to come out with some more info besides that? I have been pretty busy this last week and weekend with the Nastycar circus that came to town. I have been at the track since early Friday morning and I will continue to get to be here through late Sunday. If anyone has questions about the new Nastycar unleaded fuel...............now is probably the best time for me to answer or get answers. :thumbsup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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