Frame geometry? Banshee vs. 450's & 250R

[DieselTech]

Ok, so I've been reading alot about how crappy the 'Shee's frame geometry is compared to the old 250R & the new 450's, can anyone explain what the differences are and what those differences translate into for the rider? I have noticed that when I take my 'Shee to the track, I get tired within a few laps (severe arm pump). Of course, my suspension is stock (can you say Sh*t!). I'd personally like to know if I would get less arm pump by just switching to a 450. I mean, I could spend a ton of cash on the Banshee and make it as good as a 450, maybe better, but how much? Suspension alone could easily top $3k for shocks, a-arms, swingarm, axle, etc. - I could put that same $3k towards a new 450 (and possibly have a better mx bike anyway).

 

I have yet to ride a 450. I like my 'Shee, but I'm just not able to ride it on the track very long. I could definately reduce the fatigue by upgrading the suspension, adding a steering damper, flexx bars, etc. - but is that really cost-effective? Opinions?

[DieselTech]

lobo-

 

Thanks for the reply. I feel the same way. Don't get me wrong, I like the 'Shee alot, but it takes alot of $$$ to make it competative on an mx track, or even ridable (without killing your body) on an mx track. I think that the money *could* be better spent on a new bike (personally, I'm waiting to see the new KFX450). I could easily have more into the banshee (counting what I've got into it so far) than what a new 450 costs, and I'm not convinced that it'd be better than the 450 on the track. I guess what I really need to do is to ride a new 450 on a track for myself......then I can make an intelligent decision that I'll be happy with. Hell, my local dealer has a YFZ450 GYTR edition for sale for $6299 - that's really not much more than the mods the 'Shee would need. And I could keep the 'Shee, too......... :biggrin:

[Barrymaxx]

Well, im not expert with frame and suspension geometry, but I do know a few things.

 

First, the front frame rails of the 250r, where the arms mount up, is relativly narrow. I mean that the arms mount close to the center line of the frame. In return, this offers less bump steer, and over all better handling.

 

Another thing you will notice is the lengthy apearence of the R. It uses a long chassis with the front suspension far forward. Its motor is mounted towards the swingarm pivot point with plenty of room up front. Also, its swingarm length and alngle effects the way ii handles and hooks up.

 

 

Theres a load of factors that determine how a quad will handle..

[PhilMoore]

I have noticed on my Banshee, compared to other quads, it bottoms out a lot. I don't mean the shocks, I mean the frame hitting the ground! It is always kicking up dirt. I got a big skid pan for the frame under the engine, because it always hits on that bar between the foot pegs. I have Elka's all the way around with +2 arms.

 

Also, when I watch other Banshees go through deep whoops, the front end "digs" in causing dirt to fly up in front of the bumper. It is like the suspension just isn't right.

 

 

IMO Racing is 40 percent rider, 10 percent machine, and 50 percent luck. It is cool to race Banshee's because not many people do, but to make a Banshee handle as well as even a stock 400EX is very expensive.

 

I thought about getting more upgrades to race the 'shee, but for what it costs for upgrades, I could get a used 450 and just race and have just as good a chance. Plus, I can keep the shee for duning and looking good because racing trashes a quad pretty fast.

[kaotik1]

There are many factors in this, and not just one simple answer. For the most part though its the frame length, width, and heights, IE pegs to the seat, and the seat to the bars. Then there is motor placement. As stated above where the a-arms meet the frame, also the angle of how the spindles are roated. The swing arm into the frame have alot ot do with the front and back power placement. The banshee is a long heavy machine, when you put it up to the 250r, but then you have the power to weight ratio of the twin vs. a single.

 

Other factors to concider are how you have your set-up most track quad are built for jsut that, top notch suspension, anti-vibe just about everything, and the weights of every part is kept low.

 

To reduce fatigue and arm pump, probably a +1 stem with anti-vibe, or maybe the fast flexx bars. Wider a-arms and a good set of say zero pre-load shocks, +1 up on the foot pegs. You might also want to think anout a 2-1 carb set-up less to push with your thumb or a twist throttle.

[DieselTech]

kaotik1-

 

Yes, I have considered getting an anti-vibe stem, flexx bars, the new boyesen shockout grip system, switching to a twist throttle (better for cornering in right hand turns IMO), and a single-carb setup, for the reasons you mentioned. I think that a Banshee is a machine that will tire you out quickly on a track due to it's 1)weight, 2)suspension (or lack thereof), 3)dual carbs (heavy throttle pull), and 4)frame geometry that is not well suited for that type of riding. I've also considered a Magura hydraulic clutch as well, which I think will help with the arm pump (as I use the clutch alot to keep 'er singing). I've heard great things about the flexx bars also. I hope that suspension upgrades are worth the hefty price tag......although I just finished reading a how-to YFZ450 front a-arm/shock install on a banshee that may be a promising way to get better suspension in the front for el cheapo!

[BansheeMxer#45]

kaotik1-

 

Yes, I have considered getting an anti-vibe stem, flexx bars, the new boyesen shockout grip system, switching to a twist throttle (better for cornering in right hand turns IMO), and a single-carb setup, for the reasons you mentioned. I think that a Banshee is a machine that will tire you out quickly on a track due to it's 1)weight, 2)suspension (or lack thereof), 3)dual carbs (heavy throttle pull), and 4)frame geometry that is not well suited for that type of riding. I've also considered a Magura hydraulic clutch as well, which I think will help with the arm pump (as I use the clutch alot to keep 'er singing). I've heard great things about the flexx bars also. I hope that suspension upgrades are worth the hefty price tag......although I just finished reading a how-to YFZ450 front a-arm/shock install on a banshee that may be a promising way to get better suspension in the front for el cheapo!

well about the arm pump a good effective way to help is take a peace of pipe about 2 feet long witth a 3 foot long rope tied in the middle with a weight. hold your arms straight out and twist the pipe till the weight is all the way up and do it ten times. it make your fore arms go numb. it realy cheap. and it helps arm pump. no jokes

 

i would say to get some a- arms i bought asr +3+1 for 388 dollars and put yfz shocks on it for another 150 then bought g-force axle for another 200 and raced all yearr in quad c. it was my first year and i got 4th in my class. asr and g force axle are very good products, some people may say other things but i found out expensive is everything.

hope you take my advice

[BansheeMxer#45]

kaotik1-

 

Yes, I have considered getting an anti-vibe stem, flexx bars, the new boyesen shockout grip system, switching to a twist throttle (better for cornering in right hand turns IMO), and a single-carb setup, for the reasons you mentioned. I think that a Banshee is a machine that will tire you out quickly on a track due to it's 1)weight, 2)suspension (or lack thereof), 3)dual carbs (heavy throttle pull), and 4)frame geometry that is not well suited for that type of riding. I've also considered a Magura hydraulic clutch as well, which I think will

[LiftdT4R]

I don't know why everyone talks about the banshee like it's gonna sneak up on you while your sleeping and beat your ass or something. It kinda reminds me of the guys on the Toyota and Ford truck forums who are afraid to lift their truck because the ride won't be nice.

 

The way I see it, is the Banshee ever gonna be a competetive MX machine without a lot of $$$? No. They aren't the best handling bikes out there either.

 

But they do make sick trails bikes, and have plenty-o-power for hill climbs, wide open sections, and even a little mud. Your gonna have to put in a little work on the bike to make it handle well in the tighter sections though. All this complaining about arm pump this and that, come on, get a good throttle and clutch cable, and lift a few weights. I've ridden my shee on some pretty nasty trails for the past 3 years, and other bikes before that, and if your not tired out after 5-6 hours of riding, then your not doing it right. I've never used an antivibe stem, flex bars or anything on any of my bikes, and I can honestly say, I haven't really noticed a difference in how tired I am at the end of the day no matter what I was riding. FYI, I had a rappy 660, blaster, warrior, and a KFX400.

 

I might buy an anti vibe stem in the future to try out, but my feeling is: your riding a quad, not a Porsche, sure the banshee doesn't handle like a 250R, but it's not like it just stops and throws you off once you get into some trails.

 

Also, on the frame geometry it hasn't been mentioned, the 250R has a rake to the front of the frame, you can see it slopes up. This makes for better distribution of whops and bumps over the entire frame, should do a little something for a smoother ride. I've never gotten to ridea 250 or 450R, I have heard the handling is sick on them though.

Edited February 14, 2007 by LiftdT4R

[DieselTech]

But they do make sick trails bikes, and have plenty-o-power for hill climbs, wide open sections, and even a little mud. Your gonna have to put in a little work on the bike to make it handle well in the tighter sections though. All this complaining about arm pump this and that, come on, get a good throttle and clutch cable, and lift a few weights. I've ridden my shee on some pretty nasty trails for the past 3 years, and other bikes before that, and if your not tired out after 5-6 hours of riding, then your not doing it right. I've never used an antivibe stem, flex bars or anything on any of my bikes, and I can honestly say, I haven't really noticed a difference in how tired I am at the end of the day no matter what I was riding. FYI, I had a rappy 660, blaster, warrior, and a KFX400.

 

I might buy an anti vibe stem in the future to try out, but my feeling is: your riding a quad, not a Porsche, sure the banshee doesn't handle like a 250R, but it's not like it just stops and throws you off once you get into some trails.

 

Also, on the frame geometry it hasn't been mentioned, the 250R has a rake to the front of the frame, you can see it slopes up. This makes for better distribution of whops and bumps over the entire frame, should do a little something for a smoother ride. I've never gotten to ridea 250 or 450R, I have heard the handling is sick on them though.

 

Well, I'm not talking about getting arm pump when I'm trail riding - I'm talking about when I'm going balls-out on the MX track. It's not like I'm putt-putting around - I'm keeping up with the guys on the newer 450's - but it's KILLING ME!!! I understand why (see my reasons that I posted), and I wanted to hear from others who have had similar issues and what they tried to make it better. There's things I like about the 'Shee, and things I like about the 450's (btw, I also own a DVX400, Blaster, and had a Rappy 350 so I have something to compare to). I haven't ridden a 450 yet, so I can't comment on how they handle. I know that just getting good suspension would probably go a LONG WAY to improving the way the 'Shee handles, especially on the jumps. But, like I've said - how much $$$ would I have to spend?? MAYBE for MX, I'd be better off SELLING my 'Shee and getting a new bike??? However, I don't race ATV MX b/c it's not that popular around here (that's why I'm racing on a CR250R in Senior C). :happy:

Edited March 11, 2007 by DieselTech

[differentstrokes]

I don't know why everyone talks about the banshee like it's gonna sneak up on you while your sleeping and beat your ass or something.

:yelrotflmao:

If you're not going to race competitively, I'd just get an axle, arms, and front shocks for now. The 450's are nice, but most good racers aren't riding them stock either. You'll dump a ton of money into any quad in this sport. JMO

[LiftdT4R]

:yelrotflmao:

If you're not going to race competitively, I'd just get an axle, arms, and front shocks for now. The 450's are nice, but most good racers aren't riding them stock either. You'll dump a ton of money into any quad in this sport. JMO

Sometimes I go back and read my posts like a few days/weeks later, and I think about how much of a dick I am.

 

I still wouldnt MX or GNCC a banshee though. But if you want a play bike, the shee is BY FAR the best choice.

[DieselTech]

LiftdT4R -

 

Are you a Combat Engineer? I see the Engineer Castle in your sig..........

[LiftdT4R]

LiftdT4R -

 

Are you a Combat Engineer? I see the Engineer Castle in your sig..........

 

Nah, I'm a civilian ACE, and I do mostly enviornmental work here in the flood prone regions of NJ. If I ever get laid off I'd like to join the military branch though.

[TWILES]

First thing is that you don't really turn a 2-stroke with the handlebars, you turn it with the throttle. A Banshee can go as fast as anything out there with the stock frame and a good front-end IF you can ride it. It takes a bigger, heavier guy to really get the most out of a Banshee. If you talk to anyone who has been around ATV MX since the mid 80's they will tell you, a Banshee IS the fastest MX bike out there with the right rider. It took me a while to really learn how a Banshee worked and how to use all the motor. The main thing that a person wanting a Banshee needs to realize is that they are ment to be ridden FAST! The reason the 250R's turned better was because they were ment to be ridden at slower speeds. At 20 mph anything turns and handles better than a Banshee but at 50+ there's no competition with a guy who isn't scared of it and can RIDE it.