dajogejr Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 I parsed a lot of this, thought Ehaust gas temp was mentioned, now that I reread it....it's not, got it. I've got a few questions....too. What kind of fuel additive are you using and why? What mods are done to your bike? Will the fuel additive color the plugs that fast to where a traditional plug chop is innefective? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ojcool Posted October 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 I parsed a lot of this, thought Ehaust gas temp was mentioned, now that I reread it....it's not, got it. I've got a few questions....too. What kind of fuel additive are you using and why? What mods are done to your bike? Will the fuel additive color the plugs that fast to where a traditional plug chop is innefective? .080 over Trail port pods +4 20cc domes LRD pipes adjusted for torqe Fuel additive is Torco I should not need to tell you why I'm running the additive. Yes chop would be ineffective Right now the bike is tuned to 12.5:1 A/F ratio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajogejr Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 No...really, I'd like to know... Pump gas is probably fine on that bike, as long as it's jetted right...so, unless you were running an oxgenated fuel...I'm just curious, that's all.... You might need a mix of race/pump, but...you're borderline... Who did your porting? You're not running this garbage, are you? http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/serv...ategoryId=10317 Klotz makes much better octane boost.... Is there reason you're not using Race gas/pump mixed? Lastly, and...really, I'm not being a smart ass...I'm curious and asking the questions. Where are you getting your numbers for target A/F ratio? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooker82 Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 I run 91 octane fuel on my mx ported cylinders with 19cc domes at 2500 ft elevation. Blending Race Fuel with Pump Premium is the best way to boost octane. Octane boosters can really gum up your carburetors and if it isnt mixed just right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ojcool Posted October 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 Well, the bike makes 165psi at 187' elevation, so it's borderline. Thats why I'm running an additive. I did the porting myself. There is no port timing changes. Torco has worked perfectly fine for me with a number of applications. Why do you feel it necessary to argue that tuning via wideband is not the way to go? It really baffles me. A/F ratio is THE most important variable in tuning any engine. What exactly are you suggesting is the answer here, I have yet to read you offer any solution, all you are is the board critic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajogejr Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 Oj... I offered my suggestion my very first post... Learn to read the plugs. I also said to take this question to planetsand.com. They have more advanced knowledge as a whole in their two stroke tech section. from dyno tuning, to turbos, to Nitros to porting specs... Those have been my two suggestions... Honestly, I've been trying to pickup a few things on turbos, etc.... I've said it time and time again, a dyno and A/F tuning is a great idea to get you close on your jetting. Obviously, it will get you much closer than guessing and taking a shot in the dark. However...I've also said, experience, a good ear and learning to read plugs is the final solution.... Unless you're gonna take that A/F meter everywhere you go, everywhere you ride, everytime you ride... (And then you'd still need to learn to read plugs and listen to your motor)... This thread is starting to feel very similar to out last debate. And...this time it is my fault...so, I don't really feel like going down that road again, it's all been said and done before... Truthfully...wish you the best of luck and I hope you learn something...and get it all worked out. :beer: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ojcool Posted October 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Oj... I offered my suggestion my very first post... Learn to read the plugs. I also said to take this question to planetsand.com. They have more advanced knowledge as a whole in their two stroke tech section. from dyno tuning, to turbos, to Nitros to porting specs... Those have been my two suggestions... Honestly, I've been trying to pickup a few things on turbos, etc.... I've said it time and time again, a dyno and A/F tuning is a great idea to get you close on your jetting. Obviously, it will get you much closer than guessing and taking a shot in the dark. However...I've also said, experience, a good ear and learning to read plugs is the final solution.... Unless you're gonna take that A/F meter everywhere you go, everywhere you ride, everytime you ride... (And then you'd still need to learn to read plugs and listen to your motor)... This thread is starting to feel very similar to out last debate. And...this time it is my fault...so, I don't really feel like going down that road again, it's all been said and done before... Truthfully...wish you the best of luck and I hope you learn something...and get it all worked out. :beer: I understand why you think reading plugs is the end all, thats all we had back in the day, but we have better tools now. You have to let go of the "old school", not to say there is not a place for it, but tuning with a wideband is so far beyond reading plugs that you cannot even compare the two. Heres why: Reading plugs is very subjective to what the experience of the person reading them is. Alot can be told from them, but only as compared to what experience is. A wideband a/f ratio is not subjective (other than how your taking your measurement) it's a great deal more accurate and consistant than reading plugs. Beyond that using a wideband give you so much more information than even the most experienced plug reader can. You get data from the entire RPM range. Plus the accuracy... You cannot even compare the two. The reality is reading plugs it totally unnecessary if you know the a/f ratio is safe and the engine is not detonating.. Now heres where your right, unless you have a knock sensor, detecting knock is also subjective to experience, that is where plug reading has a place in modern sensor tuning. We need to use ALL the tools we have, there is no silver bullet when it comes to tuning, the more information you have, the better off you are... And everything should line up to support what you believe is going on. If you A/F is just peachy but the EGT's are out of this world, you know you got a problem, just like if the plug is pig rich but the a/f ratio is lean.. well you might have a sensor problem. When you get into tuning cars with multiple power adders i.e. turbo and nitrous, or a turbo diesel running propane injection and water injection, needless to say there is ALOT more to tuning a car like this than reading a sparkplug. You need information. The only reason why I'm not concerned about reading my plugs is how the bike runs, and the fact that we are not really talking about a power adder engine here, there is SOME function of forced induction here but not enough IMO to worry about EGT's. And THAT would be my only concern with reading plugs, remember I'm running 4 degrees of timing, not 10. Plus 12.5:1 A/f..... totally safe, in fact, overkill safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajogejr Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Total Side note, OJ.... Since you're into all this tuning, have you thought about a dyna or other programmable ignition. You surely know the benefits of different maps for cars, but...you'll find similar results programming an igntion correctly... Yep, I'm only 30 years old, but I definately tune old school... Like many of us, I learned from my dad, uncles, etc....and it just works for me. I've yet to pop an engine due to a lean condition, and i've been through a LOT of bikes...(albeit, just about all two strokes...) It's what I know....and it still works for me... I'm nervous about going to alky...forget everything you know about tuning gas...it's opposite. Gas you tune lean to the point of detonation, then richen it up. Alky you richen it up until it just about hydro locks on you....totally different ball game. I wonder how your setup will work on an alky bike. Have you given alky a thought?? Again, I didn't want to get in a pissing match or arguement again, that ship has sailed.... Best of luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ojcool Posted October 25, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 Total Side note, OJ.... Since you're into all this tuning, have you thought about a dyna or other programmable ignition. You surely know the benefits of different maps for cars, but...you'll find similar results programming an igntion correctly... Yep, I'm only 30 years old, but I definately tune old school... Like many of us, I learned from my dad, uncles, etc....and it just works for me. I've yet to pop an engine due to a lean condition, and i've been through a LOT of bikes...(albeit, just about all two strokes...) It's what I know....and it still works for me... I'm nervous about going to alky...forget everything you know about tuning gas...it's opposite. Gas you tune lean to the point of detonation, then richen it up. Alky you richen it up until it just about hydro locks on you....totally different ball game. I wonder how your setup will work on an alky bike. Have you given alky a thought?? Again, I didn't want to get in a pissing match or arguement again, that ship has sailed.... Best of luck! No, I don't intend to run Methanol. No, I don't intend to run Methanol. And I know how to read plugs for the 10,000 time. Reading plugs is NOT the end all be all as much as you want that to be true, it's not. And deep in your heart, you know it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajogejr Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 OK....you're right. Deep in my heart, I know you're the better two stroke banshee mechanic.... I know you're the man when it comes to dyno tuning. Anyone that makes a point of a banshee without a turbo or blower is still "not naturally aspirated" is really a knowlegable person in my book. I tried to keep this on topic...but, if you want to be a smart ass...I can play that game too. I'll be out riding my bike...periodically looking at my plugs, while you're trying to figure out the proper A/F ratio on a naturally aspirated two stroke....doing research and asking questions...when I personally can tell you the correct jetting, give or take a size...without your worthless technology quest. I hope in the end it's worth it for you.... Really...reinventing the wheel is always a great idea...you're a pioneer in this industry.... Here's your sign. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bansh-eman Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 (edited) Total Side note, OJ.... Since you're into all this tuning, have you thought about a dyna or other programmable ignition. You surely know the benefits of different maps for cars, but...you'll find similar results programming an igntion correctly... Yep, I'm only 30 years old, but I definately tune old school... Like many of us, I learned from my dad, uncles, etc....and it just works for me. I've yet to pop an engine due to a lean condition, and i've been through a LOT of bikes...(albeit, just about all two strokes...) It's what I know....and it still works for me... I'm nervous about going to alky...forget everything you know about tuning gas...it's opposite. Gas you tune lean to the point of detonation, then richen it up. Alky you richen it up until it just about hydro locks on you....totally different ball game. I wonder how your setup will work on an alky bike. Have you given alky a thought?? Again, I didn't want to get in a pissing match or arguement again, that ship has sailed.... Best of luck! id have to 100% agree here... i raced 4 stroke and 2 stroke small displacment motor most of my life as well as the rest of my family... we have raced with nascar legend grandchildren indy car grandchildren you name... jamey mcmurry ( nascar rookie driver i think 2 years ago) aj foyt , richard pettys grandson austin...these guy have more money involded in racing then you could ever hopefor and you know what we and they relied on , plug chops and reading your plugs... its great that your trying something new but in the end your going to get the same results to bad its going to cost you a 2000 dollar laptop and some 800 dollar softwear and countless hours . meanwhile our plug shop will get us in ther in a mear 20 mins and will still be running side by side with your "modern day technology" edit: correction its adam petty not austin... Edited October 25, 2006 by Bansh-eman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rriggs Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 all the computer read outs and new style technology is nice, but damn, who has all that kind of money to spend on equiptment when you can do the old school way and do just as fine and ride a hell of alot more than the guy with the lap top crunching numbers to make sure there are no errors..its just my 2 pennies....old school way all the way :thumbsup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajogejr Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 My whole argument with ojcool is that plugs should be the primary source of tuning, period. A gizmo is nice, and can get you pretty damn close, etc., But, in reality....not many have the means, funds, etc. to use it. Everybody can afford a few sets of plugs and a plug wrench...and their own time. oj seems very knowledgable about car tuning, dyno tuning those cars, etc. But, as I said in our previous spat....that doesn't translate into much when it comes to tuning a carb'd ATV two stroke. Disagree or not....that's the way it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ojcool Posted October 26, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2006 My whole argument with ojcool is that plugs should be the primary source of tuning, period. A gizmo is nice, and can get you pretty damn close, etc., But, in reality....not many have the means, funds, etc. to use it. Everybody can afford a few sets of plugs and a plug wrench...and their own time. oj seems very knowledgable about car tuning, dyno tuning those cars, etc. But, as I said in our previous spat....that doesn't translate into much when it comes to tuning a carb'd ATV two stroke. Disagree or not....that's the way it is. Hmmm, I guess Nascar does 10,000 plug chops when tuning a car... Sorry guys, I disagree, you may be able to tune pretty good by "feel" and "reading plugs" but the bottom line is, you can get more power out of an engine tuning with todays technology. It's not just a matter of getting it right, it's a matter of how long it takes plus as stated before INFORMATION... Lets say for example you have the engine tuned for a certain timing setting, and you change said timing by one degree, and you want to know how that affects said engine.. Chances are your not going to see that very dramatically on a sparkplug, once again MAYBE you could, but that would be experience and how much time have we invested in gaining that?.. It's still a guess at best, maybe a educated one, but it's a guess. Well on a dyno with a wideband your going to see that change, your going to see EXACTLY what it did, if it made more power, and the affect it had on the a/f ratio..... So now you now have the INFORMATION to decide if that was a logical change. You can decide if the risk of running more timing is worth the power you may, or may not have made. You can also REACT to changes that the extra degree of timing made on the a/f ratio. So if it leaned the a/f ratio, which typically it would, you can add the fuel to make that conditon safe.. And then run the engine again to see if you have negated the effect the extra degree of timing made, by adding fuel to make the a/f safe.... So then again you have the INFORMATION to decide if there is more power in this configuration of if your beating you head against a wall. You see by repating this you will eventually reach the limit of what the engine is capable of..... If your just adding fuel untill you get a good "plug chop", IMO your leaving something on the table AND your taking chances you don't need to. So to those who say "it costs so much money to tune that way", your right, it does cost more than running around with an adjustable wrench and a set of sparkplugs. It's funny I have seen so many people who will go spend 10,000 on parts but will not spend 800 to get the car tuned safe. And it's not really that expensive, a wideband costs around $200. In the scheme of things 200 is really not that much compared to what parts cost. It's up to you, but don't imply that I'm an idiot because I'm using a different method that what you have been doing with your adjustable wrench. I will stake my name on the fact that you can get more power out of a banshee tuning with new technology than you can tuning by "feel" and reading plugs. Bottom line is, NO ONE who is winning races is doing that in professional drag racing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajogejr Posted October 26, 2006 Report Share Posted October 26, 2006 Once again....Car vs. Two Stroke ATV... So for 200 bucks, you can get a wide band sensor, a PC and software to do all this? I'm sorry....you're right...sign me up for that... You need to compare apples to apples, oranges to oranges. Two stroke to four stroke. multimillion dollar budgets and a whole team of mechanics...to...well, an ATV engine shop that has neither.... OJ...I'm all for you doing your thing.... But again, I promise you...I could tune that bike in just an hour or two of tuning, total....wheras it'll probably take more than that to set it up and go through all that data. Honestly, we'll just have to once again agree to disagree... You have your way, I have mine...and I'm more than satisfied leaving it at that!!! Here's to ya... :beer: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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