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Da Vinci Code


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and here is a little something on your "freewill " argument 04le

 

The Christians' objection to this argument involves freewill. They say that a being must have freewill to be happy. The omnibenevolent God did not wish to create robots, so he gave humans freewill to enable them to experience love and happiness. But the humans used this freewill to choose evil, and introduced imperfection into God's originally perfect universe. God had no control over this decision, so the blame for our imperfect universe is on the humans, not God.

 

 

 

Here is why the argument is weak. First, if God is omnipotent, then the assumption that freewill is necessary for happiness is false. If God could make it a rule that only beings with freewill may experience happiness, then he could just as easily have made it a rule that only robots may experience happiness. The latter option is clearly superior, since perfect robots will never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy, whereas beings with freewill could. A perfect and omnipotent God who creates beings capable of ruining their own happiness is impossible.

 

 

 

Second, even if we were to allow the necessity of freewill for happiness, God could have created humans with freewill who did not have the ability to choose evil, but to choose between several good options.

 

Third, God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be perfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans do differently?

 

 

 

The point remains: the presence of imperfections in the universe disproves the supposed perfection of its creator.

 

 

and yes, brooke, i copied it!!!

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04le, why dont you be a man, and stand up for yourself!

HAHAHA what the fuck are you talking about here?? YOURE telling mike to be a man?? he can form an intelligent thought all on his own. he believes in something. he stands up for what he believes. what do YOU do??? run off at the mouth about anything that will get you attention. congrats. youve got the intelligence, strength and conviction of a rock. :thumbsup:

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yeah, he belives in god, yet does in no way act it,, as with almost every post he proves

 

sorry i cant be fake

 

like you brooke, that hangs out on abanshee site, thast has no banshee, no banshee knowledge no banshee realted posts,

 

youre doing good girl :rolleyes: :laugh:

Edited by helldriver
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and here is a little something on your "freewill " argument 04le

 

The Christians' objection to this argument involves freewill. They say that a being must have freewill to be happy. The omnibenevolent God did not wish to create robots, so he gave humans freewill to enable them to experience love and happiness. But the humans used this freewill to choose evil, and introduced imperfection into God's originally perfect universe. God had no control over this decision, so the blame for our imperfect universe is on the humans, not God.

 

 

 

Here is why the argument is weak. First, if God is omnipotent, then the assumption that freewill is necessary for happiness is false. If God could make it a rule that only beings with freewill may experience happiness, then he could just as easily have made it a rule that only robots may experience happiness. The latter option is clearly superior, since perfect robots will never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy, whereas beings with freewill could. A perfect and omnipotent God who creates beings capable of ruining their own happiness is impossible.

 

 

 

Second, even if we were to allow the necessity of freewill for happiness, God could have created humans with freewill who did not have the ability to choose evil, but to choose between several good options.

 

Third, God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be perfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans do differently?

 

 

 

The point remains: the presence of imperfections in the universe disproves the supposed perfection of its creator.

 

 

and yes, brooke, i copied it!!!

 

 

I would love to answer this in more depth, but then I consider who copied it and wouldn't understand the responce because you didn't think on your own. So I'll destroy the argument in two words.... limited freewill. Not even that I believe in the concept

Edited by rkc
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First, if God is omnipotent, then the assumption that freewill is necessary for happiness is false. If God could make it a rule that only beings with freewill may experience happiness, then he could just as easily have made it a rule that only robots may experience happiness. The latter option is clearly superior, since perfect robots will never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy, whereas beings with freewill could. A perfect and omnipotent God who creates beings capable of ruining their own happiness is impossible.

Who said this is the plane of perfect happiness? Perhaps this is just a spiritual training ground. Just like you failed to finish your scholastic endeavors (flunky), perhaps not everyone makes it to the next grade.

 

Second, even if we were to allow the necessity of freewill for happiness, God could have created humans with freewill who did not have the ability to choose evil, but to choose between several good options.

That does not coincide with what we know about the PHYSICAL universe and the laws of opposing forces, now does it?

 

Third, God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be perfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans do differently?

Because this is the physical plane of existance where everything is held in balance by opposing forces. Perfect happiness is not possible here because you live and you die, but who is to say that it is not possible on another plane of existance? Current scientific theory does not negate the concept of other planes of existance, in fact it further supports it as a precept.

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anton,

 

Wouldn't your scenario have serious repercussions on a little thing called free will? Isn't free will what separates us from man made technology like robots and artificial intelligence? How many people do you think the limited resources of the earth can support and for how long? What do you think happened to other civilizations of the past that have left evidence of their advanced state of existence, from knowledge of stellar precession to unfathomable feats of engineering that rival even our own abilities in this day and age? What do you think about the iceberg that is the human mind and all that lies beneath the surface? The bible says that this is not the first go around for the opposing forces of human nature. If God says that faith is what pleases him because it maintains the free will of his creation, who are you to say otherwise? How is it that the bible warns of destruction by means and on a scale that would have been inconceivable before the advent of thermonuclear weapons?

 

6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

 

7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

 

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

 

11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

 

12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

 

13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

 

15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

 

16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

 

17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

 

18But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

What would you think if someday Russia and China decide to come against Israel and the US with North Korea or Iran as a catalyst, or any of a number of other scenarios? We are pushing hard for globalization and world peace but the fact is that we are very far from it. What if you do hear the noise and see the flash? Let's all hope for the best, but are Christians bothering you in any way? Why don't you just live your life and steer clear of the haters like HD? How'd dat be? It only takes faith the size of a grain of sand. Nothing but love for you here bro.

 

yeah, what he says! :shrug: on top too!

Edited by rkc
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yeah, he belives in god, yet does in no way act it,, as with almost every post he proves

 

sorry i cant be fake

 

like you brooke, that hangs out on abanshee site, thast has no banshee, no banshee knowledge no banshee realted posts,

 

youre doing good girl :rolleyes: :laugh:

i know more about this industry, and more industry people than you do. just because you own a banshee and lose a few races doesnt mean shit. you dont know anything about what i know about ATVs and the ATV industry. besides, there are pleanty of people on here who dont own banshees. what do you care? maybe they are just fans of the sport. whats wrong with that? the only reason you attack me for that is because you are desperate. keep it up. i couldnt care less.

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yeah ok brooke, :yelrotflmao: too bad you dont know anything about who or what i know, i bet you dont even know "god" as people in the industry call him

 

 

ve been racing since i was like 17 i have come to know quite a few people

 

and if you have to ask who "god" is, you dont know shit

 

or maybe you can click the link at the bottom of the page and take a peek

Edited by helldriver
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yeah ok brooke, :yelrotflmao: too bad you dont know anything about who or what i know, i bet you dont even know "god" as people in the industry call him

 

 

ve been racing since i was like 17 i have come to know quite a few people

 

and if you have to ask who "god" is, you dont know shit

 

or maybe you can click the link at the bottom of the page and take a peek

wow 20 years of racing and youve still gotten no where. kinda shows what kind of love you have for it, i cant say i blame you. i started riding dirtbikes, snowmobiles and atvs when i was 6. i immersed myself into the industry i love, and i would never bash anyone for just wanting to hang around people who share that same love. if you had a clue about the subject of this thread you wouldnt have to go off topic every time someone challenges something you say.

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wow 20 years of racing and youve still gotten no where. kinda shows what kind of love you have for it, i cant say i blame you. i started riding dirtbikes, snowmobiles and atvs when i was 6. i immersed myself into the industry i love, and i would never bash anyone for just wanting to hang around people who share that same love. if you had a clue about the subject of this thread you wouldnt have to go off topic every time someone challenges something you say.

Honestly, Did you just make fun of someone elses shortcomings? Look in the mirror you bull dyke. You're 26 and live with your parents. You are a complete fucking failure and a drain on society.Look at yourself 26 years on this earth and you've still gotten no where. Elitest ugly fucking cunt.

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Let's imagine that I tell you the following story:

 

There is a man who lives at the North Pole.

He lives there with his wife and a bunch of elves.

* During the year, he and the elves build toys.

* Then, on Christmas Eve, he loads up a sack with all the toys.

* He puts the sack in his sleigh.

* He hitches up eight (or possibly nine) flying reindeer.

* He then flies from house to house, landing on the rooftops of each one.

* He gets out with his sack and climbs down the chimney.

* He leaves toys for the children of the household.

* He climbs back up the chimney, gets back in his sleigh, and flies to the next house.

* He does this all around the world in one night.

* Then he flies back to the North Pole to repeat the cycle next year.

 

This, of course, is the story of Santa Claus.

 

But let's say that I am an adult, and I am your friend, and I reveal to you that I believe that this story is true. I believe it with all my heart. And I try to talk about it with you and convert you to believe it as I do.

 

What would you think of me? You would think that I am delusional, and rightly so.

 

Why do you think that I am delusional? It is because you know that Santa is imaginary. The story is a total fairy tale. No matter how much I talk to you about Santa, you are not going to believe that Santa is real. Flying reindeer, for example, are make-believe. The dictionary defines delusion as, "A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence." That definition fits perfectly.

 

Since you are my friend, you might try to help me realize that my belief in Santa is a delusion. The way that you would try to do that is by asking me some questions. For example, you might say to me:

 

"But how can the sleigh carry enough toys for everyone in the world?" I say to you that the sleigh is magical. It has the ability to do this intrinsically.

 

"How does Santa get into houses and apartments that don't have chimneys?" I say that Santa can make chimneys appear, as shown to all of us in the movie The Santa Clause.

 

"How does Santa get down the chimney if there's a fire in the fireplace?" I say that Santa has a special flame-resistant suit, and it cleans itself too.

 

"Why doesn't the security system detect Santa?" Santa is invisible to security systems.

 

"How can Santa travel fast enough to visit every child in one night?" Santa is timeless.

 

"How can Santa know whether every child has been bad or good?" Santa is omniscient.

 

"Why are the toys distributed so unevenly? Why does Santa deliver more toys to rich kids, even if they are bad, than he ever gives to poor kids?" There is no way for us to understand the mysteries of Santa because we are mere mortals, but Santa has his reasons. For example, perhaps poor children would be unable to handle a flood of expensive electronic toys. How would they afford the batteries? So Santa spares them this burden.

 

These are all quite logical questions that you have asked. I have answered all of them for you. I am wondering why you can't see what I see, and you are wondering how I can be so insane.

 

Why didn't my answers satisfy you? Why do you still know that I am delusional? It is because my answers have done nothing but confirm your assessment. My answers are ridiculous. In order to answer your questions, I invented, completely out of thin air, a magical sleigh, a magical self-cleaning suit, magical chimneys, "timelessness" and magical invisibility. You don't believe my answers because you know that I am making this stuff up. The invalidating evidence is voluminous.

 

Now let me show you another example...

 

Another Example

 

Imagine that I tell you the following story:

 

I was in my room one night.

Suddenly, my room became exceedingly bright.

Next thing I know there is an angel in my room.

He tells me an amazing story.

He says that there is a set of ancient golden plates buried in the side of a hill in New York.

On them are the books of a lost race of Jewish people who inhabited North America.

These plates bear inscriptions in the foreign language of these people.

Eventually the angel leads me to the plates and lets me take them home.

Even though the plates are in a foreign language, the angel helps me to decipher and translate them.

Then the plates are taken up into heaven, never to be seen again.

I have the book that I translated from the plates. It tells of amazing things -- an entire civilization of Jewish people living here in the United States 2,000 years ago.

And the resurrected Jesus came and visited these people!

I also showed the golden plates to a number of real people who are my eye witnesses, and I have their signed attestations that they did, in fact, see and touch the plates before the plates were taken up into heaven.

 

Now, what would you say to me about this story? Even though I do have a book, in English, that tells the story of this lost Jewish civilization, and even though I do have the signed attestations, what do you think? This story sounds nutty, doesn't it?

 

You would ask some obvious questions. For example, at the very simplest level, you might ask, "Where are the ruins and artifacts from this Jewish civilization in America?" The book transcribed from the plates talks about millions of Jewish people doing all kinds of things in America. They have horses and oxen and chariots and armor and large cities. What happened to all of this? I answer simply: it is all out there, but we have not found it yet. "Not one city? Not one chariot wheel? Not one helmet?" you ask. No, we haven't found a single bit of evidence, but it is out there somewhere. You ask me dozens of questions like this, and I have answers for them all.

 

Most people would assume that I am delusional if I told them this story. They would assume that there were no plates and no angel, and that I had written the book myself. Most people would ignore the attestations -- having people attest to it means nothing, really. I could have paid the attesters off, or I could have fabricated them. Most people would reject my story without question.

 

What's interesting is that there are millions of people who actually do believe this story of the angel and the plates and the book and the Jewish people living in North America 2,000 years ago. Those millions of people are members of the Mormon Church, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah. The person who told this incredible story was a man named Joseph Smith, and he lived in the United States in the early 1800s. He told his story, and recorded what he "translated from the plates", in the Book of Mormon.

 

If you meet a Mormon and ask them about this story, they can spend hours talking to you about it. They can answer every question you have. Yet the 5.99 billion of us who are not Mormons can see with total clarity that the Mormons are delusional. It is as simple as that. You and I both know with 100% certainty that the Mormon story is no different from the story of Santa. And we are correct in our assessment. The invalidating evidence is voluminous.

 

Another example

 

Imagine that I tell you this story:

 

A man was sitting in a cave minding his own business.

A very bright flash of light appeared.

A voice spoke out one word: "Read!" The man felt like he was being squeezed to death. This happened several times.

Then the man asked, "What should I read?"

The voice said, "Read in the name of your Lord who created humans from a clinging [zygote]. Read for your Lord is the most generous. He taught people by the pen what they didn't know before."

The man ran home to his wife.

While running home, he saw the huge face of an angel in the sky. The angel told the man that he was to be the messenger of God. The angel also identified himself as Gabriel.

At home that night, the angel appeared to the man in his dreams.

Gabriel appeared to the man over and over again. Sometimes it was in dreams, sometimes during the day as "revelations in his heart," sometimes preceded by a painful ringing in his ears (and then the verses would flow from Gabriel right out of the man), and sometimes Gabriel would appear in the flesh and speak. Scribes wrote down everything the man said.

Then, one night about 11 years after the first encounter with Gabriel, Gabriel appeared to the man with a magical horse. The man got on the horse, and the horse took him to Jerusalem. Then the winged horse took the man up to the seven layers of heaven. The man was able to actually see heaven and meet and talk with people there. Then Gabriel brought the man back to earth.

The man proved that he had actually been to Jerusalem on the winged horse by accurately answering questions about buildings and landmarks there.

The man continued receiving the revelations from Gabriel for 23 years, and then they stopped. All of the revelations were recorded by the scribes in a book which we still have today.

[source: "Understanding Islam" by Yahiya Emerick, 2002]

 

What do you make of this story? If you have never heard the story before, you may find it to be nonsensical in the same way that you feel about the stories of the golden plates and Santa. You would especially feel that way once you read the book that was supposedly transcribed from Gabriel, because much of it is opaque. The dreams, the horse, the angel, the ascension, and the appearances of the angel in the flesh -- you would dismiss them all because it is all imaginary.

 

But you need to be careful. This story is the foundation of the Muslim religion, practiced by more than a billion people around the world. The man is named Mohammed, and the book is the Koran (also spelled Qur'an or Qur'aan). This is the sacred story of the Koran's creation and the revelation of Allah to mankind.

 

Despite the fact that a billion Muslims profess some level of belief in this story, people outside the Muslim faith consider the story to be imaginary. No one believes this story because this story is a fairy tale. They consider the Koran to be a book written by a man and nothing more. A winged horse that flew to heaven? That is imaginary -- as imaginary as flying reindeer.

 

Why is it so easy for you to look at these stories and see that they are imaginary fairy tales? How do you know, with complete certainty, that Mormons and Muslims are delusional? You know these things for the same reason you know that Santa is imaginary. There is no evidence for any of it. The stories involve magical things like angels and winged horses, hallucinations, dreams. Horses cannot fly -- we all know that. And even if they could, where would the horse fly to? The vacuum of space? Or is the horse somehow "dematerialized" and then "rematerialized" in heaven? If so, those processes are made up too. Every bit of it is imaginary. We all know that.

 

An unbiased observer can see how imaginary these three stories are. In addition, Muslims can see that Mormons are delusional, Mormons can see that Muslims are delusional, and Christians can see that both Mormons and Muslims are delusional.

 

One final example

 

Now let me tell you one final story:

 

God inseminated a virgin named Mary, in order to bring his son incarnate into our world.

Mary and her fiance , Joseph, had to travel to Bethlehem to register for the census. There Mary gave birth to the Son of God.

God put a star in the sky to guide people to the baby.

In a dream God told Joseph to take his family to Egypt. Then God stood by and watched as Herod killed thousands and thousands of babies in Israel in an attempt to kill Jesus.

As a man, God's son claimed that he was God incarnate: "I am the way, the truth and the life," he said.

This man performed many miracles. He healed lots of sick people. He turned water into wine. These miracles prove that he is God.

But he was eventually given the death sentence and killed by crucifixion.

His body was placed in a tomb.

But three days later, the tomb was empty.

And the man, alive once again but still with his wounds (so anyone who doubted could see them and touch them), appeared to many people in many places.

Then he ascended into heaven and now sits at the right hand of God the father almighty, never to be seen again.

Today you can have a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus. You can pray to this man and he will answer your prayers. He will cure your diseases, rescue you from emergencies, help you make important business and family decisions, comfort you in times of worry and grief, etc.

This man will also give you eternal life, and if you are good he has a place for you in heaven after you die.

The reason we know all this is because, after the man died, four people named Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote accounts of the man's life. Their written attestations are proof of the veracity of this story.

 

This, of course, is the story of Jesus. Do you believe this story? If you are a Christian, you probably do. I could ask you questions for hours and you will have answers for every one of them, in just the same way that I had answers for all of the Santa questions that my friend asked me in Example 1. You cannot understand how anyone could question any of it, because it is so obvious to you.

 

Here is the thing that I would like to help you understand: The four billion people who are not Christians look at the Christian story in exactly the same way that you look at the Santa story, the Mormon story and the Muslim story. In other words, there are four billion people who stand outside of the Christian bubble, and they can see reality clearly. The fact is, the Christian story is completely imaginary.

 

How do the four billion non-Christians know, with complete certainty, that the Christian story is imaginary? Because the Christian story is just like the Santa story, the Mormon story and the Muslim story. There is the magical insemination, the magical star, the magical dreams, the magical miracles, the magical resurrection, the magical ascension and so on. People outside the Christian faith look at the Christian story and note these facts:

 

The miracles are supposed to "prove" that Jesus is God, but, predictably, these miracles left behind no tangible evidence for us to examine and scientifically verify today. They all involved faith healings and magic tricks

 

Jesus is resurrected, but, predictably, he does not appear to anyone today

 

Jesus ascended into heaven and answers our prayers, but, predictably, when we pray to him nothing happens. We can statistically analyse prayer and find that prayers are never answered -

 

The book where Matthew, Mark, Luke and John make their attestations does exist, but, predictably, it is chock full of problems and contradictions

 

And so on.

 

In other words, the Christian story is a fairly tale, just like the other three examples we have examined.

 

Now, look at what is happening inside your mind at this moment. I am using solid, verifiable evidence to show you that the Christian story is imaginary. Your rational mind can see the evidence. Four billion non-Christians would be happy to confirm for you that the Christian story is imaginary. However, if you are a practicing Christian, you can probably feel your "religious mind" overriding both your rational mind and your common sense as we speak. Why? Why were you able to use your common sense to so easily reject the Santa story, the Mormon story and the Muslim story, but when it comes to the Christian story, which is just as imaginary, you are not?

 

Try, just for a moment, to look at Christianity with the same amount of healthy skepticism that you used when approaching the stories of Santa, Joseph Smith and Mohammed. Use your common sense to ask some very simple questions of yourself:

 

Is there any physical evidence that Jesus existed? - No. He left no trace. His body "ascended into heaven." He wrote nothing down. None of his "miracles" left any permanent evidence. There is, literally, nothing.

 

Is there any reason to believe that Jesus actually performed these miracles, or that he rose from the dead, or that he ascended into heaven? - There is no more of a reason to believe this than there is to believe that Joseph Smith found the golden plates hidden in New York, or that Mohammed rode on a magical winged horse to heaven. Probably less of a reason, given that the record of Jesus' life is 2,000 years old, while that of Joseph Smith is less than 200 years old.

 

You mean to tell me that I am supposed to believe this story of Jesus, and there is no proof or evidence to go by beyond a few attestations in the New Testament of a Bible that is provably meaningless? - Yes, you are supposed to believe it. You are supposed to take it on "faith."

 

No one (besides little kids) believes in Santa Claus. No one outside the Mormon church believes Joseph Smith's story. No one outside the Muslim faith believes the story of Mohammed and Gabriel and the winged horse. No one outside the Christian faith believes in Jesus' divinity, miracles, resurrection, etc.

 

Therefore, the question I would ask you to consider right now is simple: Why is it that human beings can detect fairy tales with complete certainty when those fairy tales come from other faiths, but they cannot detect the fairy tales that underpin their own faith? Why do they believe their chosen fairy tale with unrelenting passion and reject the others as nonsense? For example:

 

Christians know that when the Egyptians built gigantic pyramids and mummified the bodies of their pharaohs, that it was a total waste of time -- otherwise Christians would build pyramids.

 

Christians know that when the Aztecs carved the heart out of a virgin and ate it, that it accomplished nothing -- otherwise Christians would kill virgins.

 

Christians know that when Muslims face Mecca to pray, that it is pointless -- otherwise Christians would face Mecca when they pray.

 

Christians know that when Jews keep meat and dairy products separate, that they are wasting their time -- otherwise the cheeseburger would not be an American obsession.

 

Yet, when Christians look at their own religion, they are for some reason blind. Why? And no, it has nothing to do with the fact that the Christian story is true. Your rational mind knows that with certainty, and so do four billion others. This book, if you will let it, can tell you why.

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