EASTER

[Holyman]

Unless YOU are God, then YOU are a sinner just like everyone else.

So are you saying that God would forsake me, however you are going to

heaven because you do not vote or recognize Christmas or Easter which, as

I pointed out, is all quite convenient? You are...YOU...know not

All I can say is that if you look at the whole bible, you will see that those who have not lived a life of faithful service until they died, were not rewarded in any way by God. You need faith AND works that God aproves of to be saved. Since you have forsaken God with your practices, he will have no option to forsake you because he does not have a double standard.

 

holyman uses religion as a crutch to lean on to support the decisions he makes in his life and the opinions he has. he chooses to sit back not vote, not celebrate certain holidays, and thinks that claiming he does it for religious reasons lets him off the hook. religion lets him be just as judgemental as he wants. just like he looks at me and says im evil based on just a fraction of my life, and stands behind the bible to shield himself. cowardly, weak, manipulative, and against everything i believe god wants us to be. people like holyman give religion a bad rep.

Cowards don't stand up for what the truth, they remain silent. In fact the punishment for being a coward is the same as the punishment for being a fornicator... (Revelation 21:8) 8 But as for the cowards and those without faith and those who are disgusting in their filth and murderers and fornicators and those practicing spiritism and idolaters and all the liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur. This means the second death."

 

This right here is the most significant part of this whole debate...

i believe god wants us to be.

Millions of people who have never read the bible, never observed someone who truly lives by it's standards, and couldn't care less about what the bible says, or being a servant to anything but the desire they have at that moment, make up all kinds of ideas about what they "believe god wants us to be". The fact is, you have no idea what god wants you to be because you never listened to what he has to say. Some here feel that god wants us to be happy at all times. This is true except when it that happiness comes from doing something against his explicit instructions. The people of Sodom and Gomorrah were obviously happy until god destroyed them all. The people in Noah's day were obviously happy, until god destroyed them all. Millions of people today are doing things that make them happy, the same things that people in Noah's day and in Sodom and Gomorrah did, and they somehow think that since god wants them to be happy, they will not be destroyed just like the thousands of others thru-out history who ignored god's commands. God's standards have not changed from day 1 down to this very moment. And to think that god has now somehow relaxed his standards is naive at best and criminal at most.

Sure chocolates are fun and who doesn't love little bunnies and chicks? Who doesn't love getting together with their friends and family after being apart for a long time? And who doesn't love gifts? Sure I love all that stuff too. But if there is any hint of something that is involved with any of those things that god does not approve of, I will not be involved. My relationship with god is not based on the liberties that "I think" I can allow myself. My relationship is based on a complete, life long, dedication to him and his purposes. I want to show him that I am his obedient servant and not someone who is attached in name only. I will not presume that my actions are approved by god, I choose to know what god approves of. I will not step beyond the clear examples in the bible and then say that "I think" god wants this or that. My life and the lives of those who observe me are on the line. It's not worth it to leave it up to guesswork.

[banshee04le]

If you set the standard for what pleases God, as you self righteously imply, then it would seem to me that all I need to do is sit back, save some money, and take it easy on the holidays...not do for anyone but myself, don't bother to vote and preach more

about self justifying blasphemy and less about salvation through Christ. What else are you doing that is "better" than other Christians?

[rjvoight]

I thought this thread had come to an end. Milo is right though with all the different "interpretations" that people have in relation to the bible it truly could go no forever. My recommendation If you have questions about the passages that have been quoted here, look at them yourself. All I have done throughout is take the same passages others have quoted, prayed of guidance, and expanded them using the versus above and below to put them in context. No one has challenged those thoughts using the word of God. Sure, Holy has responded saying I am wrong usually quoting a different book or chapter or verse but I do the same thing, pray, read, pray and come to a conclusion.

 

 

commandments and then he sends his son {many will incorrectly argue he went himself}

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Holy, this is an interesting statement. Lets talk about the Trinity a little, Father, son Holy Spirit. What is your view on this? Are they three indpendent beings? Are they one and the same?

 

Holy earlier you said your religous background has nothing to do with this conversation. I believe it does. Your affiliation can help explain some of the reasons why you believe certain things. As I said before, my roots are from a First Babtist Church and I now am non-denominational. I am a Christian, thankful for my salvation through Christ.

 

Also, do you feel free? Do you feel grace? Or do you constantly live in fear that you may have done something that could cost you your salvation?

 

Everyone else who has taken the time to follow and read this thread, I hope if nothing else it makes you want to pick up a Bible and search out some of these answers yourself. There is only one correct interpretation of the Bible and that is God's interpretation. The most important point the Bible makes is that Salvation is available to all who ask. Try to keep Christianity and religion seperate. Religion is a man made set of rules, a way for humans to try and work their way to heaven. Chrisianity is a belief in Christ, that his sacrifice was sufficient for all human kind once and for all.

 

I sense a little hostility between Brooke and Holy and I think it stems from a previous post that I vaugly remember. Brooke, as I said before, I love having you around and greatly appreciate your posts. We don't always agree but it is great to have you chime in. I hope this thread at least makes you curious as to who Jesus truly is and what his life meant (if you don't already know)

 

As I have tried to stay true to this entire post....Salvation is simple. Accept you are a sinner, accept Christ died for you, accept he rose from the grave defeating sin, accept he is the only way and ask him for forgiveness. John 3:16 has been used over and over again but take it a little further and read John 3:1-21 to better understand what John 3:16 is saying.

 

What happens after that moment when you accept Christ is up to you. What you do with your life is up to you. If you are sincere in your acceptance of Christ there will be a change inside of you. Hopefully someone will come along side of you and bring you along, guiding you, helping you, struggling with you picking you up when you fall, reminding you that God is with you and though you have fallen, you are still his.

 

This is not always the case unfourtanatley. Sometimes a person is saved and they get thrown to the wolves. No one around to help them, or guide them and they go through life struggling and lost, knowing inside they should be somewhere else but not knowing how to get there.

 

You warriors that have been left behind in this life, lost and struggling, unhappy inside because you know you should be somewhere else, rest easy, God has saved you through Christ and someday Jesus will say... he/she is mine. untill then, hopefully another brother/sister/soldier in Christ will come along side you, find you struggling and pick you up and help you along.

 

RJV

[rjvoight]

So let me get this straight...

God, who is the personification of love, kills people for centuries for disobeying his commandments and then he sends his son {many will incorrectly argue he went himself} to earth to be tortured to death so that people who sin can live a long life of disobedience and just before they die, he gives them the option of being tortured forever by his buddy the devil OR they can come and live with him in heaven in complete happiness forever. All they need to do is completely believe that Jesus died and they accept that as fact.

This throws the entire life of Jesus and all of the lives of FAITHFUL mankind out the window. Afterall, all you really need to do say the magic word and get all the benefits of living a righteous life while being able to sin like the devil your whole life.

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First, the people and nations God destroyed were not destroyed until they were given the opportunity to change there ways. Over and over again in the Old Testament God sent people to Kings and rulers giving them the opportunity to turn to the one and true God. When they stiffened there lip and rjected Him, they were destroyed. They were Destroyed because they rejected the salvation God was trying to provide. Noah built the arc, the entire time he told people the day of judgement was coming. All those people had to do was believe and they would have been saved but they refused the salvation God provided.

 

Second, a person who has lived an entire life, maybe even a "good" life, maybe they never drank or maybe they did. Maybe they even attended church every Sunday or maybe they never went to church, maybe they were faithful to their spouse or maybe they cheated a hundred times who is on a hospital death bed comes to the conclusion they never accepted Christ as their saviour. What you are saying is it is to late for both of them. That my friend is wrong.

 

Holy, you continuously try to put God in a box saying his hand of salvation will only reach so far. You indicate that if we as humans don't hold up our end of the bargain we won't get to heaven. This is a humanistic arrogant view. It is prideful to think we as sinners have any ability at all to live up to the standard of God. Salvation comes through Christ alone.

 

RJV

[ScrewMachine]

holyman uses religion as a crutch to lean on to support the decisions he makes in his life and the opinions he has. he chooses to sit back not vote, not celebrate certain holidays, and thinks that claiming he does it for religious reasons lets him off the hook.  religion lets him be just as judgemental as he wants.  just like he looks at me and says  im evil based on just a fraction of my life, and stands behind the bible to shield himself.  cowardly, weak, manipulative, and against everything i believe god wants us to be.  people like holyman give religion a bad rep.

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WORD!! Brooke, I couldn't have said it any better. Props to you.

 

Y'all gotta hell of a thread going here, but there's two things that should be considered before discussing politics or religion.

 

1) Views are very diverse and extremely polarized. Guaranteed to start an argument which you will NEVER win because:

 

2) It is the zenith of hypocrisy to foist your views and beliefs upon another. What they believe is what they believe. Do you really think that preacher at the pulpit or the politician in front of the microphone is trying to tell you something you don't want to hear? No. Why? Because manipulation of the masses is how they make their living. Votes, donations to the church, etc.

 

I understand all of your arguments, because you believe very strongly in your convictions. And I commend you for that. But personal attacks on anothers character and/or beliefs is, in my opinion, the very antithesis of Gods word.

 

Love all, even if you think it is evil. Because it is the "bad" things in life that remind us what true beauty is.

 

jmho

[rjvoight]

I understand all of your arguments, because you believe very strongly in your convictions. And I commend you for that. But personal attacks on anothers character and/or beliefs is, in my opinion, the very antithesis of Gods word.

 

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You are 100% right and actually, I think as hot as a topic this could have or could still become, everyone has done a good job of not completely destroying anyone. All points of disagreement have been discussed, listened to, responded to with someting to back them etc. I have been on "religious" sites where a thread like this would have been terminated within the first couple hours of its existance because of disrespectful responses. Everyone who has looked at the thread and responded even if they don't think the topic is relavant have been great.

 

As two point number 2, you are unfortunately right on the money. Their are those out there who use "religion" to manipulate people, to justify their own problems and or to get money.

 

I try very hard to not confuse true Christianity with the "religion" we in America are surrounded by every day. That is one (of many) reason I think this thread has gone on. No one here is gaining anything from this except a look at their own beliefs and why they believe them. I will not change Holy's view. I know that. His views have challenged me to look at my own beliefs and helped to reafirm where I stand. If Holy changes his view it will be because God moved him not me.

 

The same goes for Brooke, or Locogato or Banshee LE or Milo or anyother person who has glanced through or read this thread. All it is going to do is challenge them personally to look at their own beliefs. If they find Truth in here, then again, it is becaue God moved not because of any one posting by any one of us.

 

I am not passing any judgement on any person here. I simply want everyone to know what I know. What they do with that is completely up to them. If they choose to read through this and say it is not for me, that is completely their choice and I have no ill feelings towards them. If someone wants to post saying I am a blind sheep idiot, and attack me personally ok, well I am human and it might fire me up a bit, but they are allowed to think that. If someone reads this grabs a Bible, talks to a Christian friend they know, gets a hold of pastor and finds the freedom and forgiveness I have been talking about over and over again throughout this thread, then praise God for that and good for them.

 

I guess it is also possible someone could get angry by this thread and just lash out at all of us, but it has not happened and I am glad.

 

Thanks for posting dude, Ride On

 

RJV

[Holyman]

If you set the standard for what pleases God, as you self righteously imply, then it would seem to me that all I need to do is sit back, save some money, and take it easy on the holidays...not do for anyone but myself, don't bother to vote and preach more

about self justifying blasphemy and less about salvation through Christ. What else are you doing that is "better" than other Christians?

God sets the standard {I've said that probably a million times} God tells us what to do and how to do it. If you don't know his standards, then don't blame me for following them.

 

Holy, this is an interesting statement. Lets talk about the Trinity a little, Father, son Holy Spirit. What is your view on this? Are they three indpendent beings? Are they one and the same?

Since there is no chance that what I say or believe will be the same as what you believe, why don't you lay out your opinion and the scritures to support your opinion and I'll see if I agree. And we might as well address Hell while we're at it.

 

Chrisianity is a belief in Christ, that his sacrifice was sufficient for all human kind once and for all.

Where did this definition come from?

 

I am not passing any judgement on any person here. I simply want everyone to know what I know. What they do with that is completely up to them. If they choose to read through this and say it is not for me, that is completely their choice and I have no ill feelings towards them. If someone wants to post saying I am a blind sheep idiot, and attack me personally ok, well I am human and it might fire me up a bit, but they are allowed to think that.

Amen brother AMEN

[Brooke]

i have to say, im proud of myself for not lashing out at holyman yet. hes been on my case forever, and all because ive slept with a couple women. to him, this means not only am i automatically a drug addict apparantly (lol) but im going to hell. i have experienced a lot in my short life, done a lot of things for other people, lots of selfless acts etc etc blah blah, and if my sleeping with a couple women negates all that, in god's eyes, and send me to hell, then fuck it. thats not a god i want to know anyway. i think the way holyman leads his life is very selfish. i prefer to worry about and do things for the people around me, the people i love, and even people i dont know, than to constantly worry about getting myself into heaven, especially if that means removing myself from being an active member of society and my family (voting, holidays)

so take that, holyman. im better than you. hows that for a taste of your own judgemental medicine.

[rebelbanshee2]

just read this thread...well part of it...

 

i really fail to see how pledging alegiance to a flag and saying the we are a nation under God is contradictory. This nation IS under God, and we should pledge our allegiance to our country. Which is kinda like pledging alegiance to God. Like you obey your supervisor(country), but ultimately you supervisor gets his power from the owner (God).

 

I understand alittle what is being said about all the easter bunny and santa clause stuff. I was not raised with santa and the bunny being part of the holidays. They were always about Jesus's resurection and birth. We still had presents and a little candy, but that wasnt the main focus. I think just because the rest of the world as a scewed view on these holidays does not mean Christians cant celebrate them for what it means to them.

[rjvoight]

Where did this definition come from?

 

 

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In that particular statement, I was simply trying to show a difference between a religious person and Christian.

 

As to the Trinity and Hell, that is going to take a little time and the wife wants me to make dinner tonight so I will get back to you on that. Take care Holy.

 

 

RJV

[rjvoight]

TRINITY:

 

Genesis 1:1-3

In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth. And the Earth was formless and void and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

 

Genesis 1:26

Then God said "Let Us make main in Our image" according to Our likeness;

 

 

Matthew 28:19

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

 

John 14:26

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

 

Colossians 2:9-10

For in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form....

 

 

These are some of the passages that lead me to believe God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same. It makes no sense to me. I am human and can not wrap my mind around it. I can not even try to explain it. I guess if God is a jealous God, we would not be "babtizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" if they were not one and the same.

 

I will touch on hell at a later time.

 

RJV

[bigtreads]

not to slight anyone elses veiw but I have to say RJV in my oppinion you are doing an excellent job

 

Brooke:

 

I wanted to add God has known every single thought and why you had them since before you where born. Regardless of what youve done or what you will do GOOD or BAD God LOVES YOU. God doesn't love you based on what you DO or DONT DO he loves you for what you are - his unique creation. Gods love is hard to even fathom on a human level (considering our versions of love). The sacrifice of his son for YOU is part evidence of that ( I recomend watching "The Passion" to get a better idea of the physical part of Jesus suffering leading up to his death/resurection). What God wants of you and I is to love him back willingly -which is why God didn't make us all robots programed to love Him in the first place. That said relationships are built one day at a time. the thing is He's been with you since your first day so you gotta play catch up

 

I would like to challenge you to this: TAKE THE FIRST STEP START A RELATIONSHIP - tell God/Jesus that you are gratefull for Jesus dieing for you on the cross so your bad stuff/sin can be erased and that your sorry for the bad stuff you've done - tell him you want to get to know him and ask that he would show himself to you in ways only you would know about . If you do this and truly mean it I will absolutly 100% garanty God will prove himself to you without a shadow of a doubt in your mind. How do I know this ? cause he said he would and cause he did for me - heck he still does nearly every day

 

I hope Im not coming across as pushey here I just wanted to respond to where you said ....negates all that, in god's eyes, and send me to hell, then fuck it. thats not a god i want to know anyway.

 

If you knew the simple cure to a brutal disease would you not want to tell that person how to get better.

 

Knowing Jesus/God is on a much bigger scale than even that . thats why I will beg and plead with people to (reguardless of other people and past events) allow God to show himself to them.

 

well I gess my intended 2 lines got expanded - sorry I just can't shut up when it comes to what Jesus has done for me and what he can do for YOU

 

YES i KNOW MY 8 YEAR OLD SPELS BETTER THAN ME

[MILO]

i hate to bring up the homosexuality thing, but it already has been to some extent, and i have to agree with Holyman on this one, if i've understood things correctly. my take on this that if you are saved, and truly have devoted your life to Christ, and the Holy Spirit resides in you, then you wouldn't commit sins such as this. it is a choice that you make and it is so plain and simple, man and woman, not man and man, woman and woman. your devotion to the Lord would stop you from giving in to the tempation of homosexuality, adultery, or whatever. however, if you have done this, and you truly are sorry for it and ask Christ's forgiveness and to wash you clean of it, he will. BUT that doesn't mean that you can intentionally do it and be expecting to be forgiven for it once you've had your fun. it's a matter of repenting for your sins, changing your ways and your life and letting the Holy Spirit guide you the rest of your days. not a get out of Hell free card in your pocket while you decide to do things that you know you shouldn't. it can be forgiven, and left in the past, what you do after that moment of being saved and forgiven of your sins is how you will be judged. you will never be sinless, but there's a difference between knowingly choosing the sinful path, when you know that you shouldn't, and slipping up now and then. and God's rules are very simple concerning homosexuality, he condemns it, whether you like it or not, or believe it's ok or wrong. it's God's rules that we are to live by, as given to us in the bible, not how man interprets and twists them to suit his/her own desires in life.

 

by the way, i hate seeing posts on here where people say things like " i'm gonna go to hell, oh well, bring the beer and we'll party on." if you knew the reality of hell, i don't understand how people would choose Hell over Heaven. i don't have time right now, but maybe some posts about the reality of Hell will open some eyes in here.

[Brooke]

yeaaa....see...that is what bothers me. if i dont feel and admit that fooling around with a couple girls in college was wrong...then im going to hell. i appreciate Jesus, his scarifices, i appreciate God and all....but that just seems very petty to me.

look, heres the deal...

i think some people, no offense, need to get in touch with reality a bit more, and look at real life situations. i like a lot of what RJV has to say, and bigtreads, and some of what milo says, but still. this whole, getting damned for eternity cause i give into the occasional 'temptation' of the flesh, irregardless of any good i do...just doesnt jive with me.

i spent a good chunk of my life physically and emotionaly takeing care of my sick brother, ok. my entire junior high/high school years were spent laying in bed with him, holding his spit cloth when he got too weak to swallow, rolling him over when he couldnt move on his own, dressing him, taking him to the bathroom, all with a smile and a joke, trying to make it as painless as possible. while most of my peers were out doin god knows what, i was there with him, my best buddy, trying to make everything easier for everyone, all the while busting my ass in advanced classes in school, getting straight As, never missing school. i dont think you can understand what its like to be 15 and have to hear your 13 year old brother say to you "i dont think ill be able to sit up by myself for much longer." what do you say to that? how do you ease that situation? i had every excuse to go bad, turn to drugs or alcohol to cope with it all, but i didnt. so i sure as hell hope that he is being well taken care of now, by God, but for you to tell me that none of the good, selfless acts ive done matter if i dont decide and believe that making out with a girl is a sin, for you to say that God will turn me away and not let me see my brother again, all because i dont believe in my heart that grabbing a few tits is evil......thats just cruel.

i think ive more than earned my keep here, and i continue to do good things, charity work, general good deeds, blah blah, not because im trying to get myself into heaven, but because its the right thing to do. ive already been through the worst hell, so if i feel like eating some more pussy, i will, send me to hell, it will be a cake walk, no one can put me through anything worse than losing my greatest love, and trust me, im a rowdy bitch, ill fight my way back to my brother if thats what needs to be done.

[CowboyBanshee]

I come from Southwestern Wyoming, and the area has a very healthy mormon population,

My best friend in high school has quite possibly the best outlook on religion...when we went to college together he endured a lot of attacks from people on campus trying to shake his faith and convert him to something else and blah blah....and he looked at me one day and said this, and to me, its classic gold...."I am sick of all this religious debate I always face, I am sick and tired of trying to defend my stance and the way I was raised and being told that my lifestyle is wrong..I have this opnion...When I was growing up, my religion taught me that I should be a better person, that I should strive to do good...now I havent always followed it to the best of my abilities, and I have my short commings, but fuck, I am only human...all I ask is for people to mind their business, I'll mind mine, you do what you think is best, all I want to be is a good person, someone that people will look back and go, ya know, he was always there for me and was good to his wife and kids, not afraid to work, play, and be a nice guy"...now I know its not verbatim, he told me this about three years ago, and to me its the most profound words of advice...I didnt grow up in a religous household, and I have no religion I call my own...but in the end, Isnt it all about having your believes and convictions...sticking to them, and trying to be a better human..?