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Wow, things are really progressing and or degressing.

 

Holy, you have quoted scripture to make your points. I in turn have used your own scriptures, adding in the versus above and below the passages you have used to make my points, often refuting what you initially said and sometimes just adding to it.

 

Banshee04LE, thank you for coming along side me in this issue. The Bible says we are to speak to a brother one on one if there is a problem...if that does not work to come with two and present the issue to the brother who is stumbling. Inadvertantly we have done that. Cool.

 

Holy, what you have refused to say is whether or not you have accepted Jesus Christ as your saviour with all of your heart. You have not said you believe in the saving power of Christ 100%. In fact, you continuously point out that you can not be saved unless you do certain things. This cheapens the sacrifice Christ made for us all. If Christ did not die and did not rise again and we are still dependant upon ourselves for salvation, then we are all lost.

 

You have also refused to enlighten us to your religious affiliation or talk about your past. You have proven you know your way around the bible and that you are educated far beyond me. My knowledge of the Bible comes from a pastor that teaches from the Bible every Sunday. Any of the passages I quoted God/The Holy Spirit lead me to. They were not posted because of my great knowledge of where everything is in the Bible.

 

I wake up every morning thanking God for another day, for my job, my wife, my family, my toys and my friends. I thank God for the complete forgivness he has provided, that his death has justified me and that no matter how I fail, when I die, my sins are paid for in full, I have been justified in Christ.

 

You have indicated several times that what I say is that there is no penalty for sin if you are saved. If I have lead any other person on this thread to believe that then I apologize and let me clarify. A Christian who choses to live in sin is the MOST MISERABLE PERSON IN THE WORLD!!!! God disciplines his own. The Christian who turns his back on God will suffer. They will suffer depression, doubt, frustration, anger, broken relationships. They will not have peace or contentment in anyway shape or form. A person who thinks once they are saved they can "do it better without God" ends up like this banghead. And they think the harder they push the better things will get while in reality they will get worse.

 

What I am saying however, is that when that person finally dies and stands before God and has to account for their life, they will have a lot to account for. But the beauty is that no matter how hard they fell in life, if they listened to the Call of Jesus and cried out to him cofessing their sins and acknowledged that they were lost, Jesus is going to step in as their advocate, their Saviour and say, This one is mine......praise God for that.

 

Salvation is simple, too simple for the Pharisees and the Sadducees to accept. To simple for most adult men to accept. It seem childish some, foolish to others. But the fact remains is that Christ died for every one of us.

 

All we have to do is acknowledge we are all sinners, lost, property of the devil. Realize that God put a plan in motion to save us all as soon as Adam and Eve fell in the Garden. Accept the plan was fullfilled when Christ was born, lived, died and rose again for our sins, bridging the gap between man and God. And finally cry out to him saying I need you Jesus, I can not do this alone. Forgive me of my sins and then accept what he has done for you.

 

This does not mean that overnight all of you problems are going to go away, that your bad habits and addictions will just up and leave. Though for some it is that dramatic. It does not mean you will get promoted or win the lottery. It doe not mean you marriage will be perfect or your kids will stop rebelling or you school work will get easier. It does mean though that you will never ever have to go through hard times alone again.

 

Doubt, fear, stress, anger, frustration....none of these are from God. They are directly from Santan. He wants to keep you there. He does not want you to be confident in your salvation because if you are....you are going to share it. YOu are going to be excited about it....you are going to want to tell people about it.

 

Holy if you have not taken that step of asking Jesus into your heart, starting a personal and real relationship with him directly, I pray that someday you will. If you have then good for you and if living this way brings you peace and contentment then good. I know where I stand and I trust the Holy Spirit has guided me through the Word of God and given me discernment and understanding.

 

RJV

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and on this day loco said to the people with sheeps following, this post is rediculous and the people bowed their heads in agreement. :P just messin with u guys. carry on.. :D

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Thanks for making me laugh :D It has gotten heavy in here. All I wanted to do was encourage those who have even similar beliefs as I do on easter and here we are two weeks later. I think it is cool that people have looked at the thread and it grew beyond what I ever thought it would. Personally, I think God has moved in a lot of ways through this thread but that is just me. If no one else likes it, it still made me do some soul searching and remember where I stand and why I stand there.

 

Later Loco-

 

RJV

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Those who believe that once your baptised or "saved" need to read Mathew 7:21-23, 15:7-9, 24:13. We must all live the will of the father and endure to the end, sincere belief is not enough to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

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Matthew 7:21-23 is directly linked to Matthew 7:15-20

 

Beware of the False prophets who come to you in sheeps clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits, Grapes are not gathered fro the thorn bushes nor figs from thistles are they? Even so every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then you will know them by their fruits.

 

7-21-23 follows up refering back to those false prophets who say "Lord Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name cast out demona and in your name perform many miracles?"

 

Matthew 15:7-9 refer back to Matthew 15:1-2 while the Pharisees and Scribes were challenging Jesus. The following versus including 7-9 plus 10-20 explain this. In vs 12 the disciples tell Jesus he offended the Pharisees to which Jesus replies in vs 14 Let them alone, they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.

 

Matthew 24:13 is directly related to Matthew 24:1-26. This part of the chapter is talking about those Christians who come to know Jesus during the Tribulation Matthew 9-13 Then they will deliver you to tribulation adn will kill you and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another and many false prohets will arise and will mislead many and because lawlessnes is increased most peoples love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved.

 

That end is simple death. Those that do not renounce God or Christ during this time, that are truly believers in deed, not just by the words of their mouth, when they die they shall be saved.

 

RJV

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Wow, things are really progressing and or degressing. 

 

Holy, you have quoted scripture to make your points.  I in turn have used your own scriptures, adding in the versus above  and below the passages you have used to make my points, often refuting what you initially said and sometimes just adding to it. 

 

Banshee04LE, thank you for coming along side me in this issue.  The Bible says we are to speak to a brother one on one if there is a problem...if that does not work to come with two and present the issue to the brother who is stumbling.  Inadvertantly we have done that.  Cool.

 

Holy, what you have refused to say is whether or not you have accepted Jesus Christ as your saviour with all of your heart.  You have not said you believe in the saving power of Christ 100%.  In fact, you continuously point out that you can not be saved unless you do certain things.  This cheapens the sacrifice Christ made for us all.  If Christ did not die and did not rise again and we are still dependant upon ourselves for salvation, then we are all lost. 

 

You have also refused to enlighten us to your religious affiliation or talk about your past.  You have proven you know your way around the bible and that you are educated far beyond me.  My knowledge of the Bible comes from a pastor that teaches from the Bible every Sunday.  Any of the passages I quoted God/The Holy Spirit lead me to.  They were not posted because of my great knowledge of where everything is in the Bible. 

 

I wake up every morning thanking God for another day, for my job, my wife, my family, my toys and my friends.  I thank God for the complete forgivness he has provided, that his death has justified me and that no matter how I fail, when I die, my sins are paid for in full, I have been justified in Christ. 

 

You have indicated several times that what I say is that there is no penalty for sin if you are saved.  If I have lead any other person on this thread to believe that then I apologize and let me clarify.  A Christian who choses to live in sin is the MOST MISERABLE PERSON IN THE WORLD!!!!  God disciplines his own.  The Christian who turns his back on God will suffer.  They will suffer depression, doubt, frustration, anger, broken relationships.  They will not have peace or contentment in anyway shape or form.  A person who thinks once they are saved they can "do it better without God" ends up like this banghead.  And they think the harder they push the better things will get while in reality they will get worse. 

 

What I am saying however, is that when that person finally dies and stands before God and has to account for their life, they will have a lot to account for.  But the beauty is that no matter how hard they fell in life, if they listened to the Call of Jesus and cried out to him cofessing their sins and acknowledged that they were lost, Jesus is going to step in as their advocate, their Saviour and say, This one is mine......praise God for that.

 

Salvation is simple, too simple for the Pharisees and the Sadducees to accept.  To simple for most adult men to accept.  It seem childish some, foolish to others.  But the fact remains is that Christ died for every one of us. 

 

All we have to do is acknowledge we are all sinners, lost, property of the devil.  Realize that God put a plan in motion to save us all as soon as Adam and Eve fell in the Garden.  Accept the plan was fullfilled when Christ was born, lived, died and rose again for our sins, bridging the gap between man and God.  And finally cry out to him saying I need you Jesus, I can not do this alone.  Forgive me of my sins and then accept what he has done for you.

 

This does not mean that overnight all of you problems are going to go away, that your bad habits and addictions will just up and leave.  Though for some it is that dramatic.  It does not mean you will get promoted or win the lottery.  It doe not mean you marriage will be perfect or your kids will stop rebelling or you school work will get easier.  It does mean though that you will never ever have to go through hard times alone again.

 

Doubt, fear, stress, anger, frustration....none of these are from God.  They are directly from Santan.  He wants to keep you there.  He does not want you to be confident in your salvation because if you are....you are going to share it.  YOu are going to be excited about it....you are going to want to tell people about it. 

 

Holy if you have not taken that step of asking Jesus into your heart, starting a personal and real relationship with him directly, I pray that someday you will.  If you have then good for you and if living this way brings you peace and contentment then good.  I know where I stand and I trust the Holy Spirit has guided me through the Word of God and given me discernment and understanding.

 

RJV

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Thank you for this post RJV. Reading it brought back the same flood of emotion that I felt when I was saved in a baptist church when I was about 8yrs old.

:cry:

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You cannot honestly think that some sugar crazed kid is learning about Jesus when he is looking for colored eggs in the yard or eating chicken shaped marshmallows. And you can't honestly believe that the same kid is going to be learning about Jesus while he's singing about Santa coming down the chimney to give him a new remote control car or a playstation.

The point you are missing about the holidays is that they have not changed. They are still festivals to the pagan gods of fertility. What you are saying is that God has accepted these wicked festivals and that he has now for some reason completely reversed his hatred for these pagan celebrations and has somehow made them OK.

That would make god the biggest hypocrite of all time. It would make him a terrorist, a liar, untrustworthy and pretty much everything else he has condemned. God does not change his views on matters, he cannot lie and he does not test people with wickedness.

 

rjv... I have and continue to accept Jesus as the only way to salvation. Without his sacrifice, there is no forgiveness for sin.

My religious affiliation and my past has nothing to do with this conversation.

(Ephesians 4:19-24) 19 Having come to be past all moral sense, they gave themselves over to loose conduct to work uncleanness of every sort with greediness. 20 But YOU did not learn the Christ to be so, 21 provided, indeed, that YOU heard him and were taught by means of him, just as truth is in Jesus, 22 that YOU should put away the old personality which conforms to YOUR former course of conduct and which is being corrupted according to his deceptive desires; 23 but that YOU should be made new in the force actuating YOUR mind, 24 and should put on the new personality which was created according to God's will in true righteousness and loyalty.

 

What I am saying however, is that when that person finally dies and stands before God and has to account for their life, they will have a lot to account for.  But the beauty is that no matter how hard they fell in life, if they listened to the Call of Jesus and cried out to him cofessing their sins and acknowledged that they were lost, Jesus is going to step in as their advocate, their Saviour and say, This one is mine......praise God for that.

And how does that thought fit in with this scripture?...(Hebrews 10:26-31) 26 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, 27 but [there is] a certain fearful expectation of judgment and [there is] a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition. 28 Any man that has disregarded the law of Moses dies without compassion, upon the testimony of two or three. 29 Of how much more severe a punishment, do YOU think, will the man be counted worthy who has trampled upon the Son of God and who has esteemed as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt? 30 For we know him that said: "Vengeance is mine; I will recompense"; and again: "Jehovah will judge his people." 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of [the] living God.

 

What you are saying is that God allowed his son to die for the benefit of people who trust in him and no matter how badly they act, they can say the magic word and Jesus will come in and save the rotten liar from God who would have otherwise destroyed them. The above scripture shows that by trampling on the knowledge of Jesus once you have received it, is an automatic death sentence.

 

That end is simple death.  Those that do not renounce God or Christ during this time, that are truly believers in deed, not just by the words of their mouth, when they die they shall be saved.
This is what I've been saying all along. You need to do more than just say what you believe you need to live it.
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Thank you for this post RJV.  Reading it brought back the same flood of emotion that I felt when I was saved in a baptist church when I was about 8yrs old.

:cry:

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And again, thanks for adding to the thread. You have encouraged me as we have gone along this thing as well. So take a look at the Banshee, think about the dunes and thank God we are here!!! Ride on Man!

 

RJV :cheers:

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.

 

rjv... I have and continue to accept Jesus as the only way to salvation. Without his sacrifice, there is no forgiveness for sin.

My religious affiliation and my past has nothing to do with this conversation.

 

Fair enough. 

 

(Ephesians 4:19-24) 19 Having come to be past all moral sense, they gave themselves over to loose conduct to work uncleanness of every sort with greediness. 20 But YOU did not learn the Christ to be so, 21 provided, indeed, that YOU heard him and were taught by means of him, just as truth is in Jesus, 22 that YOU should put away the old personality which conforms to YOUR former course of conduct and which is being corrupted according to his deceptive desires; 23 but that YOU should be made new in the force actuating YOUR mind, 24 and should put on the new personality which was created according to God's will in true righteousness and loyalty.

 

 

And how does that thought fit in with this scripture?...(Hebrews 10:26-31) 26 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, 27 but [there is] a certain fearful expectation of judgment and [there is] a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition. 28 Any man that has disregarded the law of Moses dies without compassion, upon the testimony of two or three. 29 Of how much more severe a punishment, do YOU think, will the man be counted worthy who has trampled upon the Son of God and who has esteemed as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt? 30 For we know him that said: "Vengeance is mine; I will recompense"; and again: "Jehovah will judge his people." 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of [the] living God.

 

What you are saying is that God allowed his son to die for the benefit of people who trust in him and no matter how badly they act, they can say the magic word and Jesus will come in and save the rotten liar from God who would have otherwise destroyed them.

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What is "Knowledge"? Receiving knowledge of the truth is not accepting the truth. This passage is talking directly to those who are told of God's plan of Salvation through Christ. Being told of the plan of Salvation, they have received the "knowledge". If you recieve the knowledge of God's plan and then choose to go on sinning, there is no forgiveness of sins. Knowledge is not enough. You must take action and accept Christ as your saviour. Once you accept Christ as your saviour all the other things come into play.

 

As to the passage in Ephesians, I am not arguing with you on that point. We as Christians should do these things. That we should strive to put on the "Armor of God". What I disagree with is that it is necessary for Salvation. It is necessary for growth and maturity in your Chrisitian walk. And without it, as I mentioned before you will be neutarlized by the Devil and made useless in the furtherance of the Kingdom of God.

 

In regard to your last statement, I believe that a person on their death bed, looking into the pit of hell, can be saved regardless of the sins of their entire life if they call on the name of Jesus Christ with sincerity before they die. The key word is sincerity, not just out of desperation and fear of the unknown but if God gets a hold of them at that point in their lives. It is a shame for those who get saved at that point because they have wasted away most of their lives when they maybe could have been incredible witnesses for Christ, but that does not take away the power of Jesus to save them in the end.

 

RJV

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:cheers:

 

 

And how does that thought fit in with this scripture?...(Hebrews 10:26-31) 26 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left

And I still say it is a great, great stretch for you to try to justify your theories on Christmas, Easter and voting based on the 10commandments which as you

quoted:

Any man that has disregarded the law of Moses dies without compassion, upon the testimony of two or three.
IS the benchmark.

 

Any man that has disregarded the law of Moses dies without compassion, upon the testimony of two or three. Of how much more severe a punishment, do YOU think, will the man be counted worthy who has trampled upon the Son of God and who has esteemed as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt? 30 For we know him that said: "Vengeance is mine; I will recompense"; and again: "Jehovah will judge his people." 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of [the] living God.

 

Christmas, Easter...the spirit of undeserved kindness. Holyman, you shouldn't outrage the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt.

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Wise men, or Magi, led by a star

 

Those Magi were actually astrologers from the east. (Matt. 2:1, 2, NW; NE) Although astrology is popular among many people today, the practice is strongly disapproved in the Bible. Would God have led to the newborn Jesus persons whose practices He condemned?

 

Note that the Bible account does not say that they found the babe Jesus in a manger, as customarily depicted in Christmas art. When the astrologers arrived, Jesus and his parents were living in a house.

 

Sorry about this guys, but someone posted this in the thread (not Holyman) and I just wanted to point out that Luke chapter 2 verses 7-21 say:

7And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn. 8And there were in the same country shephards abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.

9And ,lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them and they were sore afraid. 10And the angel said unto them, fear not: for behold, I bring you good tiding of great joy, which shall be to ALL people. 11For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour which is Christ the Lord. 12And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes lying in a manger. 13And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, 14Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. 15And it came to pass, as the angels were gone away from them into heaven, the shepherds said to another, Let us now go even unto Bethelehem, and see this thing which is come to pass, which the Lord hath made known unto us. 16And they came with haste, and found Mary and Joseph, and the babe lying in a manger. 17And when they had seen it, they made known abroud saying which was told them concerning this child. 18And all they that hear it wondered at those things which were told them by the shepherds. 19But Mary kept all these things and pondered them in her heart. 20And the shepherds returned glorifying and praising God for all the things that they had heard and seen, as it was told unto them. 21And when eight days were accomplished for the chircumcising of the child, his name was called Jesus, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

 

...just like Linus told it in a Charlie Brown Christmas. The traditional Christmas and Easter stories ARE STRAIGHT from the Bible and Christmas and Easter have gotten and kept the WORD of Christ's sacrifice into the mainstream for maximum exposure, as it should be. It has worked too. Virtually no one can claim lack of "knowledge" of

Christ. God won't let that be our excuse.

 

Someone who claims to have an understanding of Christianity should realize that

contempt of these two holidays could "stumble" more people than you could imagine.

Humble yourself.

 

Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men...especially on Christmas :) .

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Luke chapter 2 verses 7-21 say:

7And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn. 8And there were in the same country shephards abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.

9And ,lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them and they were sore afraid. 10And the angel said unto them, fear not: for behold, I bring you good tiding of great joy, which shall be to ALL people. 11For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour which is Christ the Lord. 12And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes lying in a manger. 13And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, 14Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. 15And it came to pass, as the angels were gone away from them into heaven, the shepherds said to another, Let us now go even unto Bethelehem, and see this thing which is come to pass, which the Lord hath made known unto us. 16And they came with haste, and found Mary and Joseph, and the babe lying in a manger. 17And when they had seen it, they made known abroud saying which was told them concerning this child. 18And all they that hear it wondered at those things which were told them by the shepherds. 19But Mary kept all these things and pondered them in her heart. 20And the shepherds returned glorifying and praising God for all the things that they had heard and seen, as it was told unto them. 21And when eight days were accomplished for the chircumcising of the child, his name was called Jesus, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

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Excellent Point 04LE. And before I went to public school and "got educated" about Christmas and Easter, that is all I knew about Chritmas because that is what my parents taught me. They used this story to explain to me the importance of "Christ"mas. My brothers and I all grew learning about who Jesus is and what he did for Me/Us.

 

Now, before someone else does this, I am going to point out a couple things. The book of Matthew is not near as detailed about this and actually says in Matthew 2:11 And they came into the house and saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell down and worshiped Him

 

Some are going to say this is a contradiction, one says manger, one says house. Why is that? You must understand who the books were written to and who wrote them.

 

The book of Matthew was written to a Jewish audience to show that Jesus was the promised Messiah of the Old Testament prophecy. In the book of Matthew there are more Old Testament Quotes than any of the other Gospels focusing on the fact he is the King of the Jews.

 

The book of Luke was written by a Gentile to the Gentile population. It is also commonly believed Luke was a physician/doctor. In Colossians 4:14 Paul refers to Luke as a beloved physician. This is important because it gives us insight as to the type of person writing the book. Most would agree that a Doctor is most likely going to be very detail oriented and is going to provide more detail in a "report" than others. With that said, I believe the Bible is inspired by God and God could have used a blind mute with no hands to write the book of Luke if he chose to, however he did not.

 

My point is that because Luke provides more details at to where Jesus actually was and Matthew simply says the people went to a house is not a contradition.

 

RJV

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So let me get this straight...

God, who is the personification of love, kills people for centuries for disobeying his commandments and then he sends his son {many will incorrectly argue he went himself} to earth to be tortured to death so that people who sin can live a long life of disobedience and just before they die, he gives them the option of being tortured forever by his buddy the devil OR they can come and live with him in heaven in complete happiness forever. All they need to do is completely believe that Jesus died and they accept that as fact.

This throws the entire life of Jesus and all of the lives of FAITHFUL mankind out the window. Afterall, all you really need to do say the magic word and get all the benefits of living a righteous life while being able to sin like the devil your whole life.

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Unless YOU are God, then YOU are a sinner just like everyone else.

So are you saying that God would forsake me, however you are going to

heaven because you do not vote or recognize Christmas or Easter which, as

I pointed out, is all quite convenient? You know not.

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holyman uses religion as a crutch to lean on to support the decisions he makes in his life and the opinions he has. he chooses to sit back not vote, not celebrate certain holidays, and thinks that claiming he does it for religious reasons lets him off the hook. religion lets him be just as judgemental as he wants. just like he looks at me and says im evil based on just a fraction of my life, and stands behind the bible to shield himself. cowardly, weak, manipulative, and against everything i believe god wants us to be. people like holyman give religion a bad rep.

 

 

 

:shrugani:

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this could be a never ending topic. having different interpretations of the Bible is inevitable. but after seeing all of the quoted verses, quoted encyclopedia articles, and everyones arguments, my opinion has not changed, and it boils down to this:

 

Christmas - regardless of the specific date of the celebration of Christmas, it is the celebration of Christ's birth. a celebration of Jesus entering into our world to begin his earthly life, from which came his teachings and our reasoning of a 'Christian' life. no, he did not command us to remember his birth, but i don't think it is a bad thing to do so. we are still celebrating Christ, not some pagan god or whatever may coincide with that time of year for others of other religions, etc. and i do not teach, nor intend to teach my children that Christmas is about Santa Claus and getting gifts and candy. my daughter recognizes Santa's picture, but she doesn't recieve gifts from him, they are from her mommy and daddy, at a time when we celebrate the gift of giving, as God gave us Jesus Christ as our saviour, and Christ gives us himself, the key to the doorway of heaven.

 

Easter - Christ did command us to celebrate his death, and resurrection. again, the Easter bunny doesn't get much credit here. the eggs and candy are merely a representation of the idea of new life that has been given to us, and how sweet it can be. if that helps my children understand that concept and then they can relate to the new life that Christ has made available for us through his death and resurrection, so be it. as long as they are taught the real meaning of Easter, and not that we are celebrating the Easter bunny and candy, i have no problems with that.

 

B)

Edited by MILO
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