EASTER

[rjvoight]

I'm curious why you would come out of the gate rejecting one of the most obvious evidences of the 2 being different.

In fact the scripture you quoted in no way shows that Jesus is God. It says he is a Mighty God. Which he is. But almighty God, he is not. As we go thru these verses you will be shown that there is a difference. As an illustration... our local grocery store sells "Presidents Choice" products. Needless to say, if someone simply looks at the label, they will be told it's Presidents Choice and immediately one could imagine that the president of the united states chose this. But a logical person would reason that such is not the case. Then they could imagine that some other president, such as a company president, chose this product. Which if the label is true at all, is much closer to reality. In the end, the label on the product gives no indication which president made the choice. Similarly, if you actually read the scripture, you will see that it makes no claim that Jesus is Almighty God. Or that that they are the same or that they are equal to each other or that the Holy Spirit is equal to either. Even "eternal father" and "prince of peace" give no indication that Jesus is Almighty God. Jesus became mankinds father when he provided a ransom for them. They were at that time allowed to be "born again" because of his sacrifice. So yes he has eternal life and he is mankinds father. You should also see that a prince is lower than a king. A prince is ALWAYS subordinate to his father. Why was he not called the King of peace? Because he is subordinate to his father, Almighty God.

But...

Before I really begin, I would like to know who the printer is of the translation you use. For example Tyndale or Zondervan etc. I ask because there is most likely information in the preface or the appendix that is NOT available on the free online version and it will be necessary for you to read it in your own bible to show what the translators were actually translating and that it's not just something I dreamed up. And if I don't have the same version in print already, I would like to get one.

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Thomas Nelson Publishers, Nashville TN

 

My Bible says..."And his name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God"

 

Revelation 1:8

"I am the Alpha and the Omega" says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty"

 

John1:1-5

 

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness and the darkness did not comprehend it.

 

I am interested in what you have to say. I do not see Jesus refering to God as Father as an evidence that He is not God. Throughout the Bible we, Christians, are continually refered to as the children of God.

 

John 1:12 But as many as received Him , to them he gave the right to become children of God......

 

Jesus calling God father continually presents to us the relationship we are to have with God through Him. That we are children of God and we should look to God as our heavenly Father.

 

Moving on, a little more about Jesus being God, we established above that the Word (Jesus) was God in John 1:1

 

Now in John 1:14

And the Word (that was God) became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

 

Holy I am praying about this and look forward hearing your views on this. Just as I do not expect to change your mind, don't be dissapointed if you don't change my mind. The more we talk about this and the more I look into the word of God, the more convinced I am that Jesus is God. Fully man, yet fully God.

 

RJV

Edited June 3, 2005 by rjvoight

[Holyman]

I'm in the process of locating your exact translation. When was it published and is it the "Open" bible?

Make sure you read each scripture you have quoted and check to make sure you have the right understanding in context. We will discuss this fully once I get your same bible. I have a NASB but it is not by Nelson.

[banshee04le]

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

[rjvoight]

I'm in the process of locating your exact translation. When was it published and is it the "Open" bible?

Make sure you read each scripture you have quoted and check to make sure you have the right understanding in context. We will discuss this fully once I get your same bible. I have a NASB but it is not by Nelson.

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Yes, "Open". This edition is 1990. I prayerfully read each verse and passage before I post, that is why it takes me a while to respond.

 

RJV

Edited June 3, 2005 by rjvoight

[banshee04le]

1 Corinthians 2:12-14

We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

2 Corinthians 4:3-4

But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

[cudaz101]

you dudes lost me after the first post... im with broke, religious ppl scare me. i dont know about everywhere else but around here religious ppl are the ones committing crimes, doin all the drugs and becoming alcoholics. thats not an opinion either, thats straight up fact. if you look at the number of kids doing that type of shit in private church schools compared the public the numbers are crazy. im guessin its because the spoiled little church school kids have the money to spend on it...personally i think the whole religious world is bogus. i just cant justify going to church worshipping something that i cant feel, see or hear. some of these people are die hard church goers and for what reason? they cant worship from home with the same affect? is it a must you go to church? the guy up front must say it is, and he must say that giving donations to the church is a must too. people give insane amounts of money to churches. there are some multi million dollar churches around here. its fuckin rediculous. someone is gettin rich off these "non profit" organizations. hell i think i might start a church...anyone wanna join my congregation??? oh yea, dont i get tax breaks if i own a church??? thatd be pretty kick ass...

Edited June 5, 2005 by cudaz101

[banshee04le]

John 14:6-9

6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then Shew us the Father?

 

It is obvious here that Jesus is subordinate to NOTHING. Rather, he is to be exhalted above EVERYTHING.

[Holyman]

It is obvious here that Jesus is subordinate to NOTHING.

 

John 14:28... 28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

 

sub

[banshee04le]

John 14:28... 28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

 

Here Jesus is simply saying that his Spirit is eternal, as opposed to the flesh which is not. This in no way refutes the very clear scripture where Jesus said himself that he IS the Father.

 

John 14:6-9

6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then Shew us the Father?

 

You can in no way refute this, and if I were you, I would be afraid to even try.

 

2 Corinthians 4:3-4

But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

 

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell

[Holyman]

QUOTE

John 14:28... 28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

 

 

Here Jesus is simply saying that his Spirit is eternal, as opposed to the flesh which is not. This in no way refutes the very clear scripture where Jesus said himself that he IS the Father.

Where did you get that idea from the simple truth spoken above. Now you yourself are denying what Jesus said. You have said all along that Jesus and the Spirit are the same. Now when Jesus says his Father is superior, you come up with the philosophy that he is talking about the Spirit. So which one is superior? Jesus, the Father or the Spirit? Of course you could read the scripture and understand but you won't.

 

You have also stated a thousand times that Jesus is the image and reflection of God. When you look at an image of yourself, or a reflection of yourself, is the reflection you? If someone destroys your reflection or your image are you destroyed? Obviously not. If someone looks at your reflection, have they seen you? Of course. Can you give directions, instruction, and influence by way of your reflection? Absolutely.

You have also stated that Jesus is the firstborn. I know you would never look into a bible dictionary, but the only definition of firstborn is one who is a son, a child, one who was created.

I would guess that there are over a hundred entries in the bible that call Jesus "the son", "the reflection", "the image" of God. ALL of these entries show that Jesus was created. And just like a mirror that a person creates to look at their reflection, God created a perfect reflection of himself, his son. This still does not make the son equal to God.

 

Just a side point, my modem blew out in my home computer so I can only reply from work. ANY delays in responding are only due to the inability to reply from home.

[banshee04le]

Jesus said "no man knows who the Son is but the Father; or who the Father is but the Son" and that "no man cometh unto the Father, but by the Son". NO WHERE in the Bible does it prescribe a limit to the power of Jesus, in fact it says that it pleased the Father that in Jesus "should ALL FULNESS DWELL". No where in the Bible does it prescribe a limit to the amount of praise that we should have for Jesus, in fact ALL praise to Jesus PLEASES the Father. Your efforts esteem as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant. Anything out of your mouth about Jesus that is anything short of exaltation does not honor the Father. You should know that and if you didn't, now

you do...

Edited June 8, 2005 by banshee04le

[Holyman]

"no man cometh unto the Father, but by the Son".

NO WHERE in the Bible does it prescribe a limit to the power of Jesus, in fact it says that it pleased the Father that in Jesus "should ALL FULNESS DWELL".

You are right on both of these points with the blatant exception that the ACTUAL MEANINGS OF THE WORDS DO NOT MEAN WHAT YOU THINK THEY SAY.

If Jesus and God were the same, there would be no reason to for someone to go thru Jesus to get to God because once they had come to Jesus they would have already come to God.

You will notice too that it was pleasing to the Father that he would allow the fullness to dwell in Jesus. Soooo Jesus didn't make the choice, it was God's call to allow Jesus that opportunity. Jesus ALWAYS gave glory to his Father and NEVER to hiimself. here's an example John 8:54,55... 54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

Jesus plainly shows that he is subordinated to his father. Even in 55 Jesus shows who he obeys, GOD...

....keep his saying.

In addition to that, the word SON is all the proof any thinking person should need to see that Jesus CAN NOT be God. Do you not understand what the word SON means?

 

rj... i'm still trying to get one of your bibles.

[banshee04le]

If Jesus and God were the same, there would be no reason to for someone to go thru Jesus to get to God because once they had come to Jesus they would have already come to God.

Yep, now your getting it. Once you come to Jesus you have come to God.

 

You will notice too that it was pleasing to the Father that he would allow the fullness to dwell in Jesus. Soooo Jesus didn't make the choice, it was God's call to allow Jesus that opportunity

Jesus could have "held something back" from his manifestation in the flesh, but it pleased the Father that in Jesus should all fulness dwell.

 

In addition to that, the word SON is all the proof any thinking person should need to see that Jesus CAN NOT be God. Do you not understand what the word SON means?

In Jewish imagery,

[Holyman]

Jesus could have "held something back" from his manifestation in the flesh, but it pleased the Father that in Jesus should all fulness dwell.

Did you think about what you were saying when you wrote this?

God is not and never was human... Numbers 23:19... 19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it ? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

This scripture again shows that not only is God NOT a man, it shows he is NOT a son of man. Yet the bible repeatedly called Jesus and even Jesus himself said he was the Son of man.

One excellent example of this is what Jesus himself said at Mt 9:6-8... 6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

7 And he arose, and departed to his house.

8 But when the multitudes saw it , they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.

Notice in verse 8, people glorified God because a MAN was performing these miracles.

In Jewish imagery,

[banshee04le]

Acts 8:27-40

And behold, a man of Ethiopia, an euniuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethipians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship, Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet. Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, if thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest, And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both unto the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

 

Like the scripture from Esaias that the eunuch was reading, you are as the sheep led to slaughter if you continue in the teachings of jehovah witness. You are also exactly as the eunich in this scripture, however thus far not as wise.

 

If you were a logical person, you would realize that the doctrinal issues that we are in disagreement on, are defended and supported by rj and I with SIMPLE TRUTHS from the Bible. Your defensive efforts have been easily overpowered by these simple TRUTHS, as you dance around searching for explanation, and finally posting long winded replies with lots of scripture pasting, that ultimately do not soundly support your arguments. For example, here is a question for you...just for starters.

RJ or I could answer it easily with simple truths from the Bible. Let's see your best effort to answer it:

 

In Rev 22:12-13, Jesus Christ, the one who is "coming quickly", says of himself, " I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end". In Rev 1:17-18, Jesus, the one who "became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever", refers to himself as the first and the last. Rev 21:6, in speaking of God, says, "...I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end ...". God is also referred to as the "first" and the "last" in Isa 44:6 and Isa 48:12. How can this be since by definition of these words there can only be one first and one last?

 

The fat lady is singing and you are still dancing.