banshee04le Posted May 29, 2005 Report Share Posted May 29, 2005 Well, if in your wisdom you have seen the error of my ways, why do you attempt to follow that same path which you condemn? What is it in you that has been challenged? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
y2kbanshee9187 Posted May 29, 2005 Report Share Posted May 29, 2005 some of you peopke are ridiculous, do you have jobs, nobody wants a bible play by play. you all sound like little kids, when in the end no one know if god is real, only according to a stupid book that may or may not be true. 375004[/snapback] good for you...................................... dont know how your criticizing in that manner, you have a lot to learn......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjvoight Posted June 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2005 My question then is... why do you think Jesus had to die to pay the debt to God? Is there some other way for God to be paid. Or why couldn't God have just looked at the suffering offspring of stupid Adam and give them a fresh start? one more thing... which translation do you prefer again? I want to be able to use the same one if possible. 374454[/snapback] God is righteous, holy and just. His word says the wages of sin is death. We have all sinned and are condemed to death. God being holy righteous and just can not be in the presence of those who are unrighteous, unjust and unholy which all of us are. His very nature would destroy us because the wage of sin is death. Other attributes of God are Mercy and Love. Because he first loved us, he sent his only son to die as a one time ultimate sacrifice for all of our sin, thus satisfying the sin = death law the righteous holy and just God established. God's just punishment for our sin was poured out on His Son, Jesus. Because God is righteous, holy and just, he could not just change the holy and just rules he established. God is the same yesterday, today and tommorow. The price for our sin had to be paid, yet we are unable to pay that price. We are all guilty of sin. The punishment is death. No matter how much God loves us, because he is a Righteous judge, he had to bring down the gavel and sentence us to death. But because he loves us, he was willing to step off the throne in heaven, through Jesus and pay the price for us. I did not list scripture this time, partially because of a lack of time and partially because many of the scriptures I would use have been posted here already. Holy, if you have a different veiw, I would be very interested in what you believe in regard to your own question. My Bible: New American Standard RJV PS Had to work graveyard over the Holiday weekend and took the wife and friends to the Dunes for an awsome day of riding yesterday. Nothing like being out with good friends riding on the open dunes in the sunshine to remind me just how good God has been to me. Take care everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banshee04le Posted June 1, 2005 Report Share Posted June 1, 2005 RJ!!! You just ruined the perfect number of posts that this all had settled on. 316!!! John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life I'll delete mine if you delete yours and we can all just let it be No offense bro, but you can't sum up salvation with abstract interpretations like that without losing a lot of people. You almost lost me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
locogato11283 Posted June 1, 2005 Report Share Posted June 1, 2005 you dudes lost me after the first post... im with broke, religious ppl scare me. i dont know about everywhere else but around here religious ppl are the ones committing crimes, doin all the drugs and becoming alcoholics. thats not an opinion either, thats straight up fact. if you look at the number of kids doing that type of shit in private church schools compared the public the numbers are crazy. im guessin its because the spoiled little church school kids have the money to spend on it...personally i think the whole religious world is bogus. i just cant justify going to church worshipping something that i cant feel, see or hear. some of these people are die hard church goers and for what reason? they cant worship from home with the same affect? is it a must you go to church? the guy up front must say it is, and he must say that giving donations to the church is a must too. people give insane amounts of money to churches. there are some multi million dollar churches around here. its fuckin rediculous. someone is gettin rich off these "non profit" organizations. hell i think i might start a church...anyone wanna join my congregation??? oh yea, dont i get tax breaks if i own a church??? thatd be pretty kick ass... by the way, this is just my personal opinion so dont go ape shit. you guys can go on worshipping thin air if you want to!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooke Posted June 1, 2005 Report Share Posted June 1, 2005 forgive me for being trite but... hey loco, id love to join your congregation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
locogato11283 Posted June 1, 2005 Report Share Posted June 1, 2005 forgive me for being trite but...hey loco, id love to join your congregation 376150[/snapback] i knew that brooke would be a loyal follower...for that she will be saved and get to go to my bed!!! want to touch the hinyyy..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banshee04le Posted June 1, 2005 Report Share Posted June 1, 2005 I was watching a program the other night about a project at the St Louis Zoo. It talked about the development of an extensive new habitat for the primates. Previously, the primates exhibit was indoors and they were caged. The new habitat is outdoors and has been carefully engineered to accomodate the needs of the apes and chimps etc. In the new open environment, the primates are hard to track as individuals because they essentially look so much alike from a distance. However it was essential to track them as individuals because the scientests at the Zoo monitor and study their behaviour both as individuals and as a group. A high tech system was employed that tracks the individual behaviours of each animal. The program did not speak to this but I would imagine that if one ape or group in the habitat became diruptive to the other groups, or to the habitat, the scientists would possibly have to intervene. In that microcosm, we are essentialy god to the apes. That being said, it is somewhat ludicrous to me and seems very arrogant that humans would think that we are king of the UNIVERSE. At the risk of sounding heretical, I'll add to this, and invite criticism by rj or dave or anyone else by saying that evolution does not present a problem for my open heart and open mind of who God is. The Bible says that "no man knows who the Son is but the Father, or who the Father is but the Son; or he to whom the Son will reveal him". What I do know is that God is not constrained by space and time. If God planted the seeds for life with foreknowledge of our evolution (3billion years or whatever being nothing to God) and KNEW when human conciousness had dawned on his creation i.e Adam, then the Bible is true despite evolution. Science will never find God because the search for truth with natural science is confined to the methods employed for the search i.e. math, physics etc. None of the sciences fully explain all aspects of human conciousness and there are no doubt many other things that man will never discover without God. Jesus revealed the TRUTH in no uncertain terms. It was 2000yrs ago and Jesus is still revealing the truth to all who will listen. For the record, the abstract (sorry RJ, I'm the one who is abstract with the interpretation ) interpretations above are nothing more than an anology and have nothing to do with my faith, which I found as a child...but who knows. I have only been to church a handful of times in the last twenty years but I know that Jesus has been with me all along and I know I have to keep his word. Oh yeah, and Brooke, I'm sorry I hit you up trying to get you to trade inappropriate pictures with me in pm that one time. I think I may have been drinking, and I knew not what I done...or something . She was having no part of it by the way, for what seemed like virtuous reasons. I did however get some VERY attractive appropriate pictures of her . I hope to have better judgment in the future as I plan on keeping Jesus much closer. Thanks rj, Dave and everyone else who contributed to this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slammin Full Bore Posted June 1, 2005 Report Share Posted June 1, 2005 Oh yeah, and Brooke, I'm sorry I hit you up trying to get you to trade inappropriate pictures with me in pm that one time. I think I may have been drinking, and I knew not what I done...or something . She was having no part of it by the way, for what seemed like virtuous reasons. I did however get some VERY attractive appropriate pictures of her . I hope to have better judgment in the future as I plan on keeping Jesus much closer. Thanks rj, Dave and everyone else who contributed to this thread. 376204[/snapback] why would it matter to jesus if we look at inappropriate pictures? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holyman Posted June 1, 2005 Report Share Posted June 1, 2005 rj... I agree with everything except this... We are all guilty of sin. The punishment is death. No matter how much God loves us, because he is a Righteous judge, he had to bring down the gavel and sentence us to death. But because he loves us, he was willing to step off the throne in heaven, through Jesus and pay the price for us. Who was it? God or Jesus? I hope you don't think I'm splitting hairs here. I feel that the actual identity of God is a major doctrinal issue. So please use scritpures to substantiate your beliefs. Also... here is a link to a free New American Standard bible download... http://eveningdew.com/bible/index.php?url=download NASB link it is the fifth from the bottom in the English section. You will probably have to do the top download first and then NASB second but with that, you will always have it right on your computer and you can save yourself from typing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noob41 Posted June 1, 2005 Report Share Posted June 1, 2005 (edited) I love christianity. If you read the bible it says that you can be saved and go to heaven up untill the split second before you die. I like it because I can kill someone that wasnt saved and send that person straight to hell for eternity while I go to jail and get saved then spend eternity with jesus. see I win! Thats what im talkin bout Edited June 1, 2005 by noob41 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooke Posted June 1, 2005 Report Share Posted June 1, 2005 Oh yeah, and Brooke, I'm sorry I hit you up trying to get you to trade inappropriate pictures with me in pm that one time. I think I may have been drinking, and I knew not what I done...or something . She was having no part of it by the way, for what seemed like virtuous reasons. I did however get some VERY attractive appropriate pictures of her . I hope to have better judgment in the future as I plan on keeping Jesus much closer. Thanks rj, Dave and everyone else who contributed to this thread. 376204[/snapback] All good love, all good. i was flattered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjvoight Posted June 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 rj... I agree with everything except this...Who was it? God or Jesus? I hope you don't think I'm splitting hairs here. I feel that the actual identity of God is a major doctrinal issue. So please use scritpures to substantiate your beliefs. Also... here is a link to a free New American Standard bible download... http://eveningdew.com/bible/index.php?url=download NASB link it is the fifth from the bottom in the English section. You will probably have to do the top download first and then NASB second but with that, you will always have it right on your computer and you can save yourself from typing. 376340[/snapback] I believe Jesus is God. I believe there are aspects of God that we as humans limited by time, space, physics etc. simply can not completely understand. Like how could God be Jesus and Jesus be God at the same time. In the previous post I set forth some arguments why I believe Jesus is God quoting scripture. Here is another... Isaiah 9:6-7 for a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, ON the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the Lord of hosts wll accomplish this. There are more but I got to get to work. Night shift has taken a toll on me and I am getting to the end of my rotation which means I sleep more and more after work so I don't have the time to post everything right now. I am going to turn the table on you a little here, show me in the Bible that Jesus is not God. I'm looking for something other than Jesus refering to God as his Father. Take care, RJV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banshee04le Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 Luke 10:22-24 22ALL things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son; and he to whom the Son will reveal him. 23And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see: 24For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them. To me, it is very clear in this passage that Jesus is saying that he is God and the Holy Spirit is also God, the Holy Spirit being "he to whom the Son will reveal him". You can think of Jesus and the Holy Spirit as God's "arms", but they are one. That is also why Jesus says that his disciples are blessed to see Jesus, for many have desired to see and hear God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holyman Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 I'm looking for something other than Jesus refering to God as his Father. I'm curious why you would come out of the gate rejecting one of the most obvious evidences of the 2 being different. In fact the scripture you quoted in no way shows that Jesus is God. It says he is a Mighty God. Which he is. But almighty God, he is not. As we go thru these verses you will be shown that there is a difference. As an illustration... our local grocery store sells "Presidents Choice" products. Needless to say, if someone simply looks at the label, they will be told it's Presidents Choice and immediately one could imagine that the president of the united states chose this. But a logical person would reason that such is not the case. Then they could imagine that some other president, such as a company president, chose this product. Which if the label is true at all, is much closer to reality. In the end, the label on the product gives no indication which president made the choice. Similarly, if you actually read the scripture, you will see that it makes no claim that Jesus is Almighty God. Or that that they are the same or that they are equal to each other or that the Holy Spirit is equal to either. Even "eternal father" and "prince of peace" give no indication that Jesus is Almighty God. Jesus became mankinds father when he provided a ransom for them. They were at that time allowed to be "born again" because of his sacrifice. So yes he has eternal life and he is mankinds father. You should also see that a prince is lower than a king. A prince is ALWAYS subordinate to his father. Why was he not called the King of peace? Because he is subordinate to his father, Almighty God. But... Before I really begin, I would like to know who the printer is of the translation you use. For example Tyndale or Zondervan etc. I ask because there is most likely information in the preface or the appendix that is NOT available on the free online version and it will be necessary for you to read it in your own bible to show what the translators were actually translating and that it's not just something I dreamed up. And if I don't have the same version in print already, I would like to get one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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