EASTER

[~~Banshee~~]

This is a loooooooooong as thread!

[banshee04le]

So you admit (you don't have to, it's evident) that you DO NOT preach the gospel of Christ even though Christ said: "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."

Matthew15:8,9

This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoreth me with their lips: but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

SO WHAT SAY YOU TO THIS:

Deuteronomy 19:15

One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

 

Well, I have at least 2 or 3 witnesses here. How many do you have here?

Oh, that's right, YOU DON'T HAVE ANY!

 

Psalms 55: 18-19

18He hath delivered my soul in peace from the battle that was against me: for there were many with me. 19God shall hear, and afflict them, even he that abideth of old. Selah. Because they have no changes, therefore they fear not God.

 

Jesus said:

In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place. And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment than for that city.

 

 

O Gracious Father, we pray for those who have turned aside from Thy ways, whose footsteps have wandered away from the truth of Thy Holy Word. Help them to know that they are forsaken the ways of pleasantness and the paths of peace. May they come back to Thee in full surrender and find delight in Thy truth, finding it to be a lamp for their feet and a light for their path. In Thy name. Amen.

[rjvoight]

There is no good in the heart of man. We are corrupt and self serving. Maybe not all of the time, but sin is sin and it only takes once. God does not seek out the good in men and reward the good things we do because without Him, there is no good to be found.

 

I have said before, a Christian who has turned his back on God is the most miserable person alive. They may not admit and the world may not see it as they party their life away, but I gurantee the Holy Spirt is chipping away at them every day and one way or another God will get their attention. He disciplines his children.

 

The Trinity, our Soul and Hell seem to be quite a point of contention. Believing in or not beliving in the Trinity will not get you into heaven. Believing or not believing in an eternal everlasting soul will not get you into heaven. Beliving or not believing in Hell will not get you into heaven. Only Jesus will get you into heaven.

 

To all of you who have read this thread, my advice is simply this,

Start with Salvation, accept who and what you are and then accept what Christ did for you and the rest of us. After that, the Holy Spirit will help you understand the Bible, God's Word, His letter to us. Jesus is the focal point of the whole Bible from Genesis to Revelation. His identity, His character, His purpose and how it was all accomplished is in that book. Decide for yourself.

 

I have no verses to quote tonight. I am sore and tired from several days of work and need to get caught up on sleep for graveyard. Take care.

 

RJV

[banshee04le]

Mathew 5: 16-26

16Let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. 17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. 21Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire (I never called you a fool ). 23Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. 25Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

 

but whosever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

You are right to honor your commitment to God by the letter of the law, to the best of your humble ability Holyman, but your teachings should be ONLY by example, for the Bible says that you should believe and preach the gospel of Christ. Then you will be justified, for the Bible says it is your tongue that makes you or breaks you. Then will you be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

Preaching the law instead of the gospel, I believe, is the trickery of the wicked one. They are the wolf in sheeps clothing. The Holy Spirit will never reach someone who is admonished of the law before receiving the Holy Spirit. Help them to receive the gift first. In Jesus name, Amen.

 

P.S. the bible says that it is much much easier for a young child to receive Gods gift, for their hearts are much more pure and much less jaded.

Send your kids to Sunday school. It did me nothing but good, and I'm still cool .

[Holyman]

One of the things I don't understand about you is your double {maybe triple } standard.

You say my bible is wrong but you never criticize rj's translation.

You say the bible is important and you should live by it but the only important part is the "you're saved" part.

You say that God loves everyone even those who sin but then he tortures them for ever.

You admitted {as I recall} that faith without works is dead but somehow you say that faith without works is not only OK but works are only to be done as an example. But Jesus himself said that you must perform the same powerful works he performed if you will have faith... John 14:12,21... 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

 

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Unfortunately I'm becoming convinced that no matter how much I show you from the bible, you are insistant on keeping the philosophies of the world that Jesus will destroy.

 

I'm also wondering where you guys get the idea what being saved is like. Is there some scripture that says you will have some deep emotional feeling when you're saved? The only thing I can find is that the one who endures to the end will be saved. Which end do you think that is?

 

Start with Salvation, accept who and what you are and then accept what Christ did for you and the rest of us.

This comment too has no foundation in the bible. It is a well known fact that Hitler accepted who and what he was and accepted what Christ did and yet he murdered, raped and pillaged millions of people and negatively effected the entire world. Would all of his horror mean nothing if he had that same emotional rush you guys had when you were "saved"?

[rjvoight]

Preaching the law instead of the gospel, I believe, is the trickery of the wicked one.  They are the wolf in sheeps clothing. The Holy Spirit will never reach someone who is admonished of the law before receiving the Holy Spirit.  Help them to receive the gift first. In Jesus name, Amen.

 

 

366387[/snapback]

 

 

Exactly.

 

RJV

[Holyman]

And which part of the bible do you base this opinion on?

[Holyman]

You still haven't answered the questions...

#1 You say my bible is wrong but you never criticize rj's translation.

#2 You say the bible is important and you should live by it but the only important part is the "your saved" part.

#3 You say that God loves everyone even those who sin but then he tortures them for ever.

You admitted {as I recall} that faith wothout works is dead but somehow you say that faith without works is not only OK but works are only to be done as an example. But Jesus himself said that you must show the same powerful works if you will have faith... John 14:12,21... 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

#4 I'm also wondering where you guys get the idea what being saved is like. Is there some scripture that says you will have some deep emotional feeling when you're saved? The only thing I can find is that the one who endures to the end will be saved. Which end do you think that is?

#5 It is a well known fact that Hitler accepted who and what he was and accepted what Christ did and yet he murdered, raped and pillaged millions of people and negatively effected the entire world. DOES all of his horror mean nothing if he had that same emotional rush you guys had when you were "saved"?

[banshee04le]

I thought that we were going to discuss this by PM after I reached out to you with the first PM Dave. Oh well, here is your response:

banshee04le

Re:Dave,, Today, 05:21 AM

[Delete Post]

 

 

PRO

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QUOTE

QUOTE

I love you bro.

 

[wub.gif]

One of the things I don't understand about you is your double {maybe triple [wink.gif] } standard.

You say my bible is wrong but you never criticize rj's translation.

You say the bible is important and you should live by it but the only important part is the "your saved" part.

You say that God loves everyone even those who sin but then he tortures them for ever.

You admitted {as I recall} that faith wothout works is dead but somehow you say that faith without works is not only OK but works are only to be done as an example. But Jesus himself said that you must show the same powerful works if you will have faith... John 14:12,21... 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Unfortunately I'm becoming convinced that no matter how much I show you from the bible, you are insistant on keeping the philosophies of the world that Jesus will destroy.

I love you to bro. If I didn't, I would have given up 12 pages ago [wink.gif]

 

 

#1

One of the things I don't understand about you is your double {maybe triple [wink.gif] } standard.

You say my bible is wrong but you never criticize rj's translation.

 

RJ preaches the gospel of Christ Dave.

 

 

#2

You say the bible is important and you should live by it but the only important part is the "your saved" part.

 

The Bible shows that the ministry of Christ cannot be accomplished through the doctrine of law.

Once a person has been saved, the Holy Spirit will guide them, as long as that person is justified by the word of God. You do cast off the Holy Spirit when you sin again (not if) but the Holy Spirit still has the key to your heart. Therefore you should obviously strive to continue to walk in the Spirit and further your fellowship with God.

 

 

#3

You say that God loves everyone even those who sin but then he tortures them for ever.

Anything that I said that gave insight to punishment was straight from the Bible, and I won't try to interpret it for you further that what is written for I don't know.

 

 

#4

I'm also wondering where you guys get the idea what being saved is like. Is there some scripture that says you will have some deep emotional feeling when you're saved?

Yes, if you TRULY repent, it WILL BE emotional.

 

#5

It is a well known fact that Hitler accepted who and what he was and accepted what Christ did and yet he murdered, raped and pillaged millions of people and negatively effected the entire world. DOES all of his horror mean nothing if he had that same emotional rush you guys had when you were "saved"?

Hitler was NEVER led by the Holy Spirit Dave, why do you think he was?

 

John 14: 12-21

12Verily, verily I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; becuase I go unto my Father. 13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. 15If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more: but ye see me: becuase I live, ye shall live also. 20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

 

 

12Verily, verily I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also;

 

These are the works that I am doing as I try to reach out to you even still Dave.

 

 

15If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

 

The commandments of Jesus are not the same as the commandments of Moses Dave. For the law came by Moses but grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ. The commandments of Christ IS THE GOSPEL. Moses was forsaken by God.

 

 

19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more: but ye see me: becuase I live, ye shall live also. 20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.  21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

 

"That day" when the world seeth him no more came when your blasphemy entered the Easter thread, and then I knew that He was in me, and has been ever since that day when I was saved as a child, for I always kept my faith. I have been led to many passages that have justified my life since that day but those details are between me and God and I will never dishonor God in the name of Christ but I will just say that I am where I need to be, when I need to be there.

 

You are the one with the "philosophies of the world" Dave.

 

O God, give us a better understanding of our fellow men. May we have the proper regard for each other. Give us patience to walk in unity with each other. In the name of Jesus our Lord. Amen.

 

O Father, may we be endued with that love which is patient and kind. Take away from us all jealousy and rudeness. Cleanse our minds of selfishness. Give us a spirit of gladness which shall help us to bring gladness to others. In thy name. Amen.

 

O God, help us to be responsive to Thy will. Our hearts are so full of the many things that crowd out those of real worth. Open our eyes that we may see, our ears that we may hear, and our lips that we may speak for Thee. May Thy spirit touch a responsiveness in our lives. Amen.

 

 

 

 

--------------------

Romans 2:24

yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. AMEN.

[Holyman]

So is that your reply to these questions...?

#1 You say my bible is wrong but you never criticize rj's translation.

#2 You say the bible is important and you should live by it but the only important part is the "your saved" part.

#3 You say that God loves everyone even those who sin but then he tortures them for ever.

You admitted {as I recall} that faith wothout works is dead but somehow you say that faith without works is not only OK but works are only to be done as an example. But Jesus himself said that you must show the same powerful works if you will have faith... John 14:12,21... 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

#4 I'm also wondering where you guys get the idea what being saved is like. Is there some scripture that says you will have some deep emotional feeling when you're saved? The only thing I can find is that the one who endures to the end will be saved. Which end do you think that is?

#5 It is a well known fact that Hitler accepted who and what he was and accepted what Christ did and yet he murdered, raped and pillaged millions of people and negatively effected the entire world. DOES all of his horror mean nothing if he had that same emotional rush you guys had when you were "saved"?

[banshee04le]

So is that your reply to these questions...?

 

Yeah, there they are Dave...1,2,3,4,5...

 

#1

One of the things I don't understand about you is your double {maybe triple [wink.gif] } standard.

You say my bible is wrong but you never criticize rj's translation.

 

RJ preaches the gospel of Christ from his Bible Dave.

 

 

#2

You say the bible is important and you should live by it but the only important part is the "your saved" part.

 

The Bible shows that the ministry of Christ cannot be accomplished through the doctrine of law.

Once a person has been saved, the Holy Spirit will guide them, as long as that person is justified by the word of God. You do cast off the Holy Spirit when you sin again (not if) but the Holy Spirit still has the key to your heart. Therefore you should obviously strive to continue to walk in the Spirit and further your fellowship with God.

 

 

#3

You say that God loves everyone even those who sin but then he tortures them for ever.

Anything that I said that gave insight to punishment was straight from the Bible, and I won't try to interpret it for you further that what is written for I don't know.

 

 

#4

I'm also wondering where you guys get the idea what being saved is like. Is there some scripture that says you will have some deep emotional feeling when you're saved?

Yes, if you TRULY repent, it WILL BE emotional.

 

#5

It is a well known fact that Hitler accepted who and what he was and accepted what Christ did and yet he murdered, raped and pillaged millions of people and negatively effected the entire world. DOES all of his horror mean nothing if he had that same emotional rush you guys had when you were "saved"?

Hitler was NEVER led by the Holy Spirit Dave, why do you think he was?

 

John 14: 12-21

12Verily, verily I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; becuase I go unto my Father. 13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. 15If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more: but ye see me: becuase I live, ye shall live also. 20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

 

 

12Verily, verily I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also;

 

These are the works that I am doing as I try to reach out to you even still Dave.

 

 

15If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

 

The commandments of Jesus are not the same as the commandments of Moses Dave. For the law came by Moses but grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ. The commandments of Christ IS THE GOSPEL. Moses was forsaken by God.

 

 

19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more: but ye see me: becuase I live, ye shall live also. 20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.  21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

 

"That day" when the world seeth him no more came when your blasphemy entered the Easter thread, and then I knew that He was in me, and has been ever since that day when I was saved as a child, for I always kept my faith. I have been led to many passages that have justified my life since that day but those details are between me and God and I will never dishonor God in the name of Christ but I will just say that I am where I need to be, when I need to be there.

 

You are the one with the "philosophies of the world" Dave.

 

O God, give us a better understanding of our fellow men. May we have the proper regard for each other. Give us patience to walk in unity with each other. In the name of Jesus our Lord. Amen.

 

O Father, may we be endued with that love which is patient and kind. Take away from us all jealousy and rudeness. Cleanse our minds of selfishness. Give us a spirit of gladness which shall help us to bring gladness to others. In thy name. Amen.

 

O God, help us to be responsive to Thy will. Our hearts are so full of the many things that crowd out those of real worth. Open our eyes that we may see, our ears that we may hear, and our lips that we may speak for Thee. May Thy spirit touch a responsiveness in our lives. Amen.

 

 

 

 

--------------------

Romans 2:24

yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. AMEN.

[rjvoight]

For every point you have made, a counter point has been made. I think some of your points have been made using quotes from the Bible that are taken out of context. Now, I understand you will look at my posts and in turn say I have taken them out of context....so how do we or other judge who is right?

 

James 2:17 Even so faith if it has no works is dead, being by itself.

 

We have beat this topic to death. A Christian who is saved, has accepted Christ as his personal savior and is filled with the Holy Spirit will have works with his faith. Who are you or I to say what his work should be? God uses us where he will and when he will. That use is based upon our own maturity in Christ. Some mature quickly while other stumble along.

 

Someones works may be as simple as handing a burger to a homeless person after they pull out of the drive through while other have dedicated their lives to work in the mission field in a third world country. Is one of them better than the other? Have they both done what God through the Holy Spirit has led them to do? Not all are called to missions work and not all are called to give a burger to some guy on the street, but when you are called you better move.

 

What if you fail though, and you don't give that burger up or you ignore the call to missions? do you loose your salvation? No, you simply fail and hopefully you recognize it through the prompting of the Holy Spirit and you do not drop the ball again next time. If you are running from God on a larger scale like avoiding the mission field, you will be miserable and will not find true happiness until yo submit to God's perfect plan for your life. There are a million other examples in life, I tried to present a simple example and a more complex example.

 

Now someone who claims Christ but has no works and never has had any works, are they saved? I would say no....but that is not my place to put a final judgement....That is between them and God.

 

Now someone who works all the time, gives to the church, gives to the poor, teaches from the bible, leads scouts, trys to be a good friend and husband and father and trys to follow the law but has never accepted Christ as their personal saviour....are they saved.....NO. As to what happens to that person who spent his life trying to work his way to heaven when he dies, read the Bible and make up your own decision (which we all have).

 

I have never said the only important part of the Bible is Salvation. I do say that Salvation is the most important and I believe the first step to true understanding of the Bible.

 

Matthew 24:13 But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved.

 

I already posted my view on that. It is speaking about those who endure during the end times during the Tribulation. I believe this because Chapter 24 speaks of the 2nd coming of Christ.

 

Holy I don't know that we differ on this but maybe we do. A person must have Christ to understand and appreciate what you are saying. Without Christ first, the Bible is nonsense. Spiritual maturity and growth is just like anything else. You can pick up a guitar but you can't play it immediately. You pick it up knowing what it is about and what you are supposed to do but you must learn the basics before you can play a song. (For the BHQ'rs on here, you can jump on a Banshee but you must understand the basics of the bike to make it "work")

 

You speak of Steak and Lobster so to speak while I am talking to the others on this thread using Gerber Baby Food. Most people can not jump straight into the Law of the Bible without starting off slowly. You see examples of this in the different Letters in the Bible, the Church at Corinth was not the same as the Church in Rome. They were at different stages in their maturity in Christ.

 

My goal here is to simply point out Christ. Over and over lift Him up and put Him first. Let the people here decide on Christ for themselves, and then they will seek out the wisdom of the Word. I am not a teacher. It is not my calling to interperet the Bible for anyone else.

 

My beliefs are well grounded. I have looked at your thoughts and posting with an open mind and prayerfully reviewed them using the Bible. I have responded to most of your posts (all of them I thinK) using the Bible to explain my beliefs most of the time including your own passages.

 

You will no more change my views than I will change yours and I am cool with that. It is not our job to change eachother. Present the information and let the Holy Spirit work. That is it.

 

 

RJV

Edited May 9, 2005 by rjvoight

[Holyman]

#1 So all of that pontificating you did about the King James version being the only real bible wasn't true then right? Or are you changing your mind on that?

 

#2 What part of the books of Matthew and Mark that I'm quoting has anything to do with the Mosaic law?

Mt 10:22... 22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mt 24:13... 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 13:13... 13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

 

#3 What??? No retort for #3?

 

#4 You still have not shown me from the bible what it is like to be saved. Surely if being saved is something that every Christian must experience, then the bible will explain what it's like.

 

#5 You say Hitler was not lead by the Holy Spirit. But how do you know. He was never expelled from the Catholic Church, he professed to be a Christian his entire life AND he claimed to be saved. You also said that the leaders of this world are selected by God. How is it that you and Hitler have the same experience but you say he was not lead by the spirit? If he's saved, then he's OK in your book. Right??? Or do you now have a different opinion?

 

And when you say that Jesus is "in" you, are you saying that you are Jesus?

 

And when you say I blasphemed, how did I do that? When I called Easter {the very name is Pagan} a pagan holiday? I somehow did something wrong by exposing your involvement in a Satanic sex ritual?

And check out this rambling double talk... "I have been led to many passages that have justified my life since that day but those details are between me and God and I will never dishonor God in the name of Christ but I will just say that I am where I need to be, when I need to be there."

 

... I am where I need to be, when I need to be there.

WOW now that's deep.

[banshee04le]

Through the Holy Spirit, the witnesses for God and Christ are admonishing YOU Dave, or did you forget:

Deuteronomy 19:15

One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

 

Let not them that are mine enemies wrongfully rejoice over me: neither let them wink with the eye that hate me without a cause. For they speak not peace: but they devise deceitful matters against them that are quiet in the land. Yeah, they opened their mouth wide against me, and said, Aha, aha, our eye hath seen it. This thou hast seen, O Lord keep not silence: Lord, be not far from me. Stir up thyself and awake to my judgment, even unto my cause, my God and my Lord. Judge me O Lord my God, according to thy righteousness; and let them not rejoice over me. Let them not say in their hearts, Ah, so would we have it: let them not say, We have swallowed him up. Let them be ashamed and brought to confusion together that rejoice at mine hurt: let them be clothed with shame and dishounour that magnify themselves against me. Let them shout for joy, and be glad, that favour my righteous cause: yea, let them say continually, Let the Lord be magnified, which hath pleasure in the posperity of his servant. And my tongue shall speak of thy righteousness and of thy praise all the day long.

[Holyman]

OK rj, now your turn...

It seems you and 04le are parting ways on how a person should live once they have dedicated themselves to God.

You seem to be agreeing that works are necessary and not just an excessory. Again, a person who loves someone enough to be dedicated to them, doesn't have a problem making every effort to make them happy. Our works should be motivated by love for God and not a manditory set of procedures to be carried out. In this too a person who wants to know what pleases God would immitate the person who God was most pleased with, Jesus Christ. So to show God we love him, a Christian will do everything in his power to immitate Jesus in all things. And when we fail to be pleasing to God because of some opportunity that was missed, God will not destroy us. He knows we are weak and imperfect. However, as you mentioned, a person who professes to have dedicated themselves to God yet never does any works to demonstrate that love and remains the same as the world that ignores God, will lose Gods favor and ultimately be destroyed... (1 John 2:15-17) 15 Do not be loving either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; 16 because everything in the world-the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one's means of life-does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. 17 Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but he that does the will of God remains forever.

As you mentioned, even going to church all the time and giving to the poor is not a guarantee that you will be rewarded... (Matthew 15:7-9) . . . 8 'This people honors me with their lips, yet their heart is far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines.'"

(Matthew 7:21-23) 21 "Not everyone saying to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?' 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.

 

A person must know who God is and who his son is and what part they each have in God's arrangement.

You are right that it is the one who endures to the end of the tribulation spoken of in Revelation, or of course until the end of their lives, that may be saved. And since no-one knows when the end will come {not even Jesus... Mark 13:32-37} we should use every day to show God that we still care and that his love is not wasted on us. (Luke 11:9-10) 9 Accordingly I say to YOU, Keep on asking, and it will be given YOU; keep on seeking, and YOU will find; keep on knocking, and it will be opened to YOU. 10 For everyone asking receives, and everyone seeking finds, and to everyone knocking it will be opened. . .

(Luke 13:23-27) 23 Now a certain man said to him: "Lord, are those who are being saved few?" He said to them: 24 "Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell YOU, will seek to get in but will not be able, 25 when once the householder has got up and locked the door, and YOU start to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, 'Sir, open to us.' But in answer he will say to YOU, 'I do not know where YOU are from.' 26 Then YOU will start saying, 'We ate and drank in front of you, and you taught in our broad ways.' 27 But he will speak and say to YOU, 'I do not know where YOU are from. Get away from me, all YOU workers of unrighteousness!'

 

So I think in this most recent post we can agree on almost everything

But I would still like to know how you came to the conclusion that Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are all the same and how a God who personifies love would torture his children forever