EASTER

[banshee04le]

As to the saving grace of God and Christ:

 

Act 15:7-11

7And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel and believe.

8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by FAITH. 10Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11But we believe that through the grace of Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

 

Romans 4:1-13

1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but

not before God. 3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 9Cometh this blessedness then upon the cicumcision only or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say the faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10-12 say that the saving grace of Christ is meant for EVERYONE who will believe and accept the Holy Spirit.. skip to verse 13For the promise that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith

 

Titus 3:5-11

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. 9But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. 10A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 11Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

 

John 1:17

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

 

Has the second admonition begun? Perhaps it's well under way.

[Holyman]

So how do your various translations render Hebrews 11:1 which gives the definition of faith?

[bigboybanshee]

Welp...that does it.

[OR_Banshee]

WOW, this thread is still going....How long ago was Easter anyways?

[rjvoight]

LMAO

 

This doesn't seem like a discussion anymore, it's more like throwing ideas out there and waiting for someone to reply so they can be told how they're wrong. Wallrat isn't too far off from the truth....seems like the whole bible is being covered in this neverending debate

360512[/snapback]

 

 

WOW, this thread is still going....How long ago was Easter anyways?

360585[/snapback]

 

 

I never wanted this to become an argument, I have tried very hard to not be argumentative during this thread but I am human. It is amazing that this is still going on. I do not have anything new to add. Holy and I will not agree and that is apparent. The funny thing is it does not matter if we agree.

 

All that matters is what each person who has read this thread does with the information they have gained by reading this. Two views have been posted. Which one is right? Those of you who actually want to know who is right will take the time to search out the Bible on their own.

 

Take the Bible versus that have been posted and read them for yourselves, put them in context, if you are not sure of the context, ask someone to help explain. Most of the time you can even call a church and talk to a pastor on the phone to get a little help. The truth is in the Bible. There is only one truth, it is absolute and final, not open for interpretation. We as humans will never fully understand that truth without God. That is just how it is.

 

RJV

 

PS: Holyman, tell me you are getting some good riding in while on vacation, I know I could use about a week on the sand with friends and family just riding and BBQin and riding some more

[banshee04le]

So how do your various translations render Hebrews 11:1 which gives the definition of faith?

360381[/snapback]

 

Hebrews 11:1

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. 4By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 5By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this thestimony, that he pleased God. 6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed: and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16But now they desire a better country , that is, and heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. 17By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead: from whence also he receive him in a figure. 20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come. 21By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph: and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff. 22By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel: and gave commandment concerning his bones. 23By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child: and they were not afraid of the kings commandment. 24By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaohs daughter: 25Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season: 26Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. 27By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. 28Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them. 29by faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned. 30By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days. 31By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace. 32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon and of Barak and of Samson, and of Jephthae of David also , and Samuel, and of the prophets: 33Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance: that they might obtain a better resurrection: 36And others had trial of crue mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: 37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins: being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 39And these all having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

 

This all can be summed up quite simply. The power of faith knows no bounds PROVIDED THAT YOU ARE GUIDED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.

 

 

11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

In this example, Sara's faith was misplaced and she was not guided by the Holy Spirit, nor was the wolf who defiled her. I believe that this speaks to "offspring" religions that are born not unto God. DO NOT let your faith lead you astray.

SEEK THE TRUTH BEFORE YOU SEEK HEAVEN!

 

36And others had trial of crue mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: 37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins: being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

These people will NOT be forsaken.

 

 

38(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 39And these all having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

These are the self righteous. Those "holier than thou" types, if you will, for whom the world was not worthy. These people WILL be forsaken. They are wandering in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. Not guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

All other examples of faith in this scripture are of people who WERE led by the

Holy Spirit.

 

Do you get it now?

[Holyman]

So as you look thru that list of faithful, who were the ones that had that one hit wonder kind of faith? In fact if you look at verse 6, you will see that his servants would be "diligently seeking him". Does that sound like a one time expression of faith? You will also see in verse 1 that a person expresses faith with the HOPE of receiving not a one time step to getting a specified reward.

 

PS no riding yet can't find someone to rent us a quad

[banshee04le]

Titus 3:5-11

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. 9But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. 10A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 11Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

 

John 1:17

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Well sir, my heel is sore and I know your head hurts so I am going to

avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain

however I shall

be careful to maintain good works

This concludes MY second admonition to YOU. Concider yourself rejected.

I hope you look deeper. It's not hard to see, despite the veil you are under.

I don't know where you were going with the "one time expression of faith" thing. My

faith is every bit as strong as yours and I am seeking just as diligently as you. I still fail to see where your works are so great...especially if you are doing MORE than leading people to the word, meaning once again that you, of all people, should not be interpreting for them. The bible says over and over again that YOUR deeds on this earth are not sufficient to place you with God. Only through repentance, faith and acceptance of Christ's sacrifice for us all shall you find Grace. So #1 ADMIT you are not worthy of being in the presence of God for YOU ARE a sinner. #2 Seek the truth about Christ and God's plan #3 Let the Holy Spirit work in you in whatever way shape or form but BEWARE should satan lead your faith astray, which could manifest itself in you thinking that you are righteous enough to earn your way to heaven on your own. "Endure to the end" just means that you cannot kill yourself and claim your "reward".

"Endure to the end" does NOT mean that you should ignore the admonishments of the Holy Spirit. I hope that you see the light and our paths meet in the end. In Jesus name, Amen.

 

To anyone reading who may be on the fence I would like to say that if you open your heart, there are enough signs in the world that indicate that there is more than what meets the eye, enough to fuel anyones faith. Seek the truth.

It is humanly impossible to comprehend the vastness of the universe but you do not reject it's existence. It is humanly impossible to comprehend God as well. Get off of the fence.

[rjvoight]

Titus 3:5-11

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. 9But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. 10A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 11Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

 

John 1:17

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

 

360235[/snapback]

 

 

That sums it up pretty well. It identifies where we are at now in this thread for sure. A battle over the "law" is not profitable for anyone. Good Job Banshee.

Edited April 27, 2005 by rjvoight

[Holyman]

You guys are still avoiding explaining how it is that faith {which is... "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."} somehow means you are saved. You have said all you need to do is call out in faith but faith again is an expression of HOPE and not a guaranteed result. Faith without works is dead. So a person who says "I have faith" but does not go on expressing or demonstrating that faith {again faith is hope} has a dead hope or dead faith.

Only by demonstrating faith in Jesus can someone be saved. Not just knowing that there was a jesus or saying "JESUS" when someone thinks they are going to die.

The examples in the scripture in Hebrews shows people who demonstrated faith and you will be hard pressed to find anyone in the bible who was faithful once and who received a reward from God. Faith in God is a life changing dedication. It's a lifelong dicsipline and not just an emotional thing you felt one day at church. So you guys know who to put faith in to be saved but you don't know how to put faith in God. One of the reasons you don't know how to put faith in God is because you don't know who God is. You have avoided the fact that Jesus ALWAYS put himself below his father, that the Holy Spirit is god's force and that there is no such thing spoken of in the bible as the trinity, a hell of torture, or a soul that lives on after death. Jesus is God's son who was created, God does not torture anyone, and the soul dies. I'm more than happy to openly discuss this and would be happy to convert this to an email discussion instead of a board dicussion. Eventhough Jesus loves bandwidth, the rest of the HQ family may not want to see this played out in this venue. Unless I hear votes to the contrary from HQ members who may want this conversation continued here, I will be happy to discuss this by emai... IHRbearings@peoplepc.com

I highly recommend you guys purchase a dictionary and a bible concordance so we can start with the basics of any education... understanding what the words mean.

[bigboybanshee]

The only problem with this "discussion" is that it's not a discussion; it's basically you (Holyman) telling everyone that does not believe the way you do that they are wrong. I have no problems with the topic carrying on, but I only speak for myself and not others.

 

There is nothing wrong with any one's beliefs; the only being that can truly judge you is God. If you choose to worship God the way you do, that's wonderful and I'm sure it is very rewarding to you and your family. Everyone has their own way of worshipping the lord (if they do worship God) and most importantly there is no "one way" to do that...

 

I think it's interesting to hear everyone's point of view on this topic, but regardless of what anyone tells me (unless it's God), I am going to continue to believe the way I've been brought up to believe; and I have no doubts of where I'll be when all is said and done.

 

I hope not to have offended anyone, I'm just stating the facts as I see them. I'll be the last person to tell someone they're going to hell for believing in a way that is different from my own. As said before, only God can decide.

[banshee04le]

Hebrew10 29-31

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, where with he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done DESPITE UNTO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE? For we know him that hath said Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, the Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

You obviously don't know what Grace is. You obviously do not know the Bible as well as you think you do.

John 1:17

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

 

Jesus said "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh: and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN". "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world: but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

 

You are hiding in darkness Holyman. By the way you are NOT a "Holyman". The fact that you would call yourself such is a clear indication of your misdirection.

Repent or be damned for you are not a righteous man, as there ARE NONE.

 

What deeds have you that esteem you worthy of God?

 

Cometh to the light Holyman. Doeth TRUTH. Tell the TRUTH...TO GOD. The TRUTH is YOU ARE A SINNER, as we all are. Realize that without accepting HIS GRACE as gifted through Christ for those who believe, that you are unworthy of God. THAT is repentance and THAT is were you MUST begin your search for the TRUTH. Faith is the greatest test of all...a test worthy of God, but without repentance the Holy Spirit can not work through you. Praise God for his plan of Salvation through Christ. Amen.

[Holyman]

it's basically you (Holyman) telling everyone that does not believe the way you do that they are wrong.

No... it's basically me telling everyone that does not already know what I believe, what I believe, and the scriptures I base those beliefs on.

 

banshee04le...

You have apparently never read a word of what I've said and if you have, it must be well beyond your comprehension. For the 12 billionth time, I never said that you can earn salvation, salvation is a gift from God. a GIFT. But God wants us to show him that we want that salvation. (James 1:6-8) 6 But let him keep on asking in faith, not doubting at all, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven by the wind and blown about. 7 In fact, let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from Jehovah; 8 he is an indecisive man, unsteady in all his ways.

Can you see the point yet... God wants those of us who know that salvation comes from the shed blood of Jesus Christ to keep on PROVING to him that we still want that salvation. (Luke 11:8-10) . . .. 9 Accordingly I say to YOU, Keep on asking, and it will be given YOU; keep on seeking, and YOU will find; keep on knocking, and it will be opened to YOU. 10 For everyone asking receives, and everyone seeking finds, and to everyone knocking it will be opened. {all italics added}

There is nowhere in the bible that says you just need a one time demonstration of faith {faith equals hope remember} to gain everlasting salvation. Faith is hope and hope must be expressed daily. And hope needs to be backed up with action. A person who hopes to have a good relationship with God or anyone else, needs to initiate a relationship with that person AND maintain that relationship AND work at it to keep it working and vigilantly protect that relationship to make sure the other person is sure of your dedication.

You can hope all you want but unless you knowthe person you are having a relationship with, your actions will be a waste of time. And here is where knowing God gets easy. UNlike a girlfriend or someone else you want to have a relationship with, you can know God by reading the bible. If you ever read the bible, you would see that God and Jesus are not the same, God does not torture people for all eternity even if they don't want to be obedient, and God requires that those who are in a relationship with him are exclusively devoted to him in word and deed.

The fact that you read this stuff with a bag over your head is obvious. And If you were around here for any length of time or cared to know, you would know the reason why I use the name I have.

I'm getting to the point of really thinking you just don't know anything more of the bible than the 6 verses you've thrown out over and over again. Which I of course agree with. I agree with everything written in the bible but I also know that there is no part of the bible that contradicts any other part. So if you have something to say, say it. But remember that if it dsoes not fit in with the REST of the bible, then the interpretation is wrong. Everyone can know the truth and once you know the truth of the WHOLE bible, you will be free.

[banshee04le]

Psalms51

Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy loving kindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. 2Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. 3For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. 4Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. 5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. 6Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. 7Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. 8Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. 9Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. 10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. 13Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee. 14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness. 15O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise. 16For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it; thou delightest not in burnt offering. 17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. 18Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem. 19Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

[Holyman]

Now for people who don't understand 400 year old "English"...

(Psalm 51:1-19) 51 Show me favor, O God, according to your loving-kindness. According to the abundance of your mercies wipe out my transgressions. 2 Thoroughly wash me from my error, And cleanse me even from my sin. 3 For my transgressions I myself know, And my sin is in front of me constantly. 4 Against you, you alone, I have sinned, And what is bad in your eyes I have done, In order that you may prove to be righteous when you speak, That you may be in the clear when you judge. 5 Look! With error I was brought forth with birth pains, And in sin my mother conceived me. 6 Look! You have taken delight in truthfulness itself in the inward parts; And in the secret self may you cause me to know sheer wisdom. 7 May you purify me from sin with hyssop, that I may be clean; May you wash me, that I may become whiter even than snow. 8 May you cause me to hear exultation and rejoicing, That the bones that you have crushed may be joyful. 9 Conceal your face from my sins, And wipe out even all my errors. 10 Create in me even a pure heart, O God, And put within me a new spirit, a steadfast one. 11 Do not throw me away from before your face; And your holy spirit O do not take away from me. 12 Do restore to me the exultation of salvation by you, And may you support me even with a willing spirit. 13 I will teach transgressors your ways, That sinners themselves may turn right back to you. 14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God the God of my salvation, That my tongue may joyfully tell about your righteousness. 15 O Jehovah, may you open these lips of mine, That my own mouth may tell forth your praise. 16 For you do not take delight in sacrifice-otherwise I would give [it]; In whole burnt offering you do not find pleasure. 17 The sacrifices to God are a broken spirit; A heart broken and crushed, O God, you will not despise. 18 In your goodwill do deal well with Zion; May you build the walls of Jerusalem. 19 In that case you will be delighted with sacrifices of righteousness, With burnt sacrifice and whole offering; In that case bulls will be offered up on your very own altar.

 

banshee04le... were you making a point or just practicing your typing?