EASTER

[rjvoight]

Break time, back to the Point, SALVATION

 

Again, matters of religion are not matters of salvation. Salvation comes through Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ Alone.

 

Josh McDowell wrote a book called more than a carpenter. One of the chapters is titles "Isn't there some other way"? A very common question. He broke it down like this. ( I am going to liberally plagerize his work here)

 

We as humans know God by his attributes, love, holiness, justice and righteousness. What we as humans typically do is add them up to say they equal God. Wrong, God is all of these things, completely. "when we say God is love, we do not mean that a part of God is love, but that love is something that is true of God When God loves he is simply being himself".

 

So God creates man and woman to share in his love and glory. The problem occured when Adam and Eve sinned. When that happened they and all of us were sparated from the God of love. Because God is love, he wanted to save his creation but by his very nature of being also holy, righteous and just, he could not be in the presence of his creation because his very nature would destroy it. Hence "the wages of sin is death". So one might say in human terms, "God had a problem". But then we remember God is God.

 

Within the "God Head" or "Trinity" if you will God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit a plan of salvation was put into action. Jesus, God the Son, would take human form and become the God-man. (John Chapter One,14 Phillipians 2) Jesus was 100% man, and 100% God. He lived a sinless life by choice. Since he was sinless "the wages of sin is death". was nothing to him. Because he was not only "finate man but infinate God" he was able to take upon himself the sins of the enitre world. When Jesus died on the cross Gods wrath was poured out on his own son. When Jesus said "It is finished" the righteous nature of God was satisfied. (Romans 3:24-25)

 

Another question that comes up when people contemplate accepting Christ as the only way to Salvation is, why can't God just forgive? Why did Christ have to die and why do I have to do anything?

 

Look at it this way. You have a son or daughter. They are playing in the driveway next to your Banshee. On your banshee are these shiny billet valve stem covers. Your little one grabs the safety scisors and cuts each valve stem like a flower so they can have the shiny pieces. You may be a little hot but you will forgive your child. What is the cost of that forgiveness? 4 new valve stems. Who paid for that, you do.

 

Whenever there is forgiveness, someon has to pay in some way. Jesus paid for our sins on the cross and now we can be forgiven through him.

 

So again the simple thing we need to do is pray to God, acknowledge we are sinners, acknowledge there is nothing we can do to save ourselves, acknowledge who Christ is, that he died for us and rose from the grave, accept that he paid the price for our sins, accept him as your personal savior. Then let the Holy Spirit work in you....

 

 

RJV

Edited April 19, 2005 by rjvoight

[Holyman]

So in your first reply are you saying that people had to call on the name of Jesus to be saved even though Jesus had not come to the earth yet?

How can you say this scripture means anything other than exactly what it says...

(Acts 24:14-15) . . . But I do admit this to you, that, according to the way that they call a 'sect,' in this manner I am rendering sacred service to the God of my forefathers, as I believe all the things set forth in the Law and written in the Prophets; 15 and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous. italics added

He is obviously drawing on the similarity in thoughts between them but he also says that there will be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. Who are the unrighteous then?

 

So where do you see someone being given a second chance after they die?

Right there in verses 12 & 13 which you skipped over... (Revelation 20:11-13) . . .. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Ha

[rjvoight]

Holy, it is apparent we do not agree. Everything I have stood on is from the Bible. We some how do not read the same passages the same. I do not understand how that can be but we don't see eye to eye.

 

The thing is you have been fighting this battle alone. You have continuosly refuted counsel from myself and others who have posted on this thread. Have you seriously and prayerfully gone to God with your beliefs?

 

I do not know where your beliefs stem from because you refuse to tell us your religous affiliation. You say it does not matter but it does. The things you say lead me to believe you are Jehova Witness. Other things make me think maybe you belong to the Latter Day Saints.

 

I stand in the strength of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I believe in the Word of God and I trust the Holy Spirit leads me through the Word of God giving me wisdom and understanding beyond what a simple man can have.

 

The things you say take away from the Diety of Christ, they take away from the ability of Christ to save wholly and completely. You are tellng people they will have a second chance after they die to be saved. You say you can lose your salvation. None of this is Biblical. The versus you use to support your claims are out of context and I have shown that over and over again.

 

These things are wrong. I will gladly continue the thread, but I ask you to take a hard look at what has been said by others on this thread. This goes far beyond the surface issue of celebrating certain holidays or if we should vote or the theory of the Trinity. It is a matter of life and death. I have chosen life through Christ. Nothing will ever take that from me.

 

I have read your post, but it is late and I am tired. I want to be sure to speak clearly and not make mistakes that will cause confusion or stumble anyone who may read this thread. I will go into futher detail at another time on your points.

 

Quickly though As to Acts, the unrighteous are the ones who are not justified through Christ. As to is believing in God the same as being saved, no it is not. I made that point several posts ago. I did not skip Rev 20:12-13. They say all will be judged. If your name is not in the book of Life you will be judged by your works to determine your level of punishment, not your level of reward. YOUR DEEDS CAN NOT SAVE. Only Jesus. Your name is in the book of life only if you accept Christ. Vs 15 says "And if anyones name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Salvation only comes through Christ.

 

RJV

Edited April 20, 2005 by rjvoight

[banshee04le]

Again, I never said that I would receive more mercy. God decides who to extend mercy not me.

You have also not proven that I should vote and you have not shown that being involved in the Holidays is in any way shape or form approved by God.

I think I finally understand. When God has "delivered" someone, they are saved.

Like when the Israelites called out to God for deliverance and were delivered from egypt. Like Exodus 18 which says repeatedly that they were delivered. Right?

 

What is Hosians?

And what is the point you are trying to make with these other verses...? Romans 2:24 and 3:10.

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Hosians ...oops. I meant Hosea.

#1 I am in no way attempting to prove that you should vote and I would not presume to say that God would judge you for not voting. The only book I have over here that was written by God is the bible, my dictionary is by some guy named Webster and unless you have a dictionary that was written by God then your job as Gods servant is to LEAD people to the WORD, not interpret it for them. Can you understand that? You are the one who came into this thread preaching your views on voting and the holidays. It was good for a while but I fear that the waters are too muddy now for any new swimmers to jump in aka we lost our audience. Thats not good.

 

We are not that far apart really. If you are saved then you are guided by the holy spirit and he will lead some through the valley of the shadow of death. The soldiers of God must be everywhere, not just in some monastary. That being said, I still fail to see how your service to God exceeds mine. Do you live in a monastary?

 

 

 

I think I finally understand. When God has "delivered" someone, they are saved.

Like when the Israelites called out to God for deliverance and were delivered from egypt. Like Exodus 18 which says repeatedly that they were delivered. Right?

I don't know holy, like I said my dictionary wasn't written by God but lets look at the verses again:

old testament Joel 2:32

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered.

 

new testament Romans 10:13

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

To me, the Lord is Jesus Christ.

 

 

And what is the point you are trying to make with these other verses...? Romans 2:24 and 3:10.

old testament Hosians 6:6

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

 

new testament Matthew 9:13

But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

 

 

Romans 2:24

yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. AMEN.

 

Romans 3:10

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.

 

The point is again that we all fall short and if you think you don't then you think you are righteous and God will NOT be calling for you. So if you think that you can earn your way to heaven then you need to repent.

 

Romans 2:24 was for me.

 

Again, we are not that far apart. Of course salvation is not a get out of sin free pass. It would be IMPOSSIBLE to be saved with that preconceived notion. Surely you can understand that.

 

Glory to God in the highest and on earth peace, good will towards men.

[rjvoight]

   

your job as Gods servant is to LEAD people to the WORD, not interpret it for them.  Can you understand that?  You are the one who came into this thread preaching your views on voting and the holidays.  It was good for a while but I fear that the waters are too muddy now for any new swimmers to jump in aka we lost our audience.  Thats not good.

 

If you are saved then you are guided by the holy spirit and he will lead some through the valley of the shadow of death.  The soldiers of God must be everywhere 

 

Glory to God in the highest and on earth peace, good will towards men. 

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Thank you Banshee, you hit it right on the head, especially the part about muddy waters which is my concern at this point in the thread. You were able to articulate that clearer than I was in my last post. Thanks.

 

Holy, if my last post is incorrect and offensive to you then I apologizel. I am passionate about God and His Word and His Son and the Salvation I have received.

 

RJV

[banshee04le]

Thank you Banshee

My name is Mike, and thank you. I know holyman's name is Dave. What's your name?

[rjvoight]

My name is Randy. This has been great for my own personal growth. You and Dave and Brooke and all the others who took time to post made me look at things and reafirm who I am and who God has and is making me to be. If just one person was moved or is moved by this thread then praise God.

 

Later -

 

RJV

[MILO]

this is still goin on?? geeeeez...

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as i said before, it's neverending!

[Holyman]

I would like to visit this with much more detail but I'm going on vacation today and don't have the time.

At this point all I can say is that I have not only read the More Than a Carpenter book but painstakingly studied all the scriptures quoted in it. And I found 1 flaw. None of the scriptures match up with the philosophy put forward by the author.

If you read the bible from cover to cover you will find that there is no mention of a Trinity, a God Head, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. And completely missing is the concept that God would pour out his rage on anyone except those who are the most vile willful sinners {certainly NEVER his son}. In fact you will see that Jesus NEVER put himself on an equal basis with his father and ALWAYS explained that he was inferior to his father. You will find that Jesus was created, Jesus learned things like obedience, and that he DIED a complete death just like any other human. ALL of these are impossible for God.

You will also find that the Holy Spirit does not have a life. The Holy Spirit is God's energy, or active force. It is God's remote control he uses to influence his creation.

You will also find that the soul is NOT a living thing by itself but it the life force in living things. The soul dies because the person dies. Animals are souls the same as people are souls. Souls eat, souls have cravings, souls sin, and souls die. You will also find that God has no desire to punish people for all eternity even if they sin against him because the "wages sin pays is death" and the dead can do nothing. They simply cease to exist.

I have gone toe to toe with religious leaders of many churches who promote these ideals and the most they have ever been able to say in return is WOW you know the bible. I even sent a letter to the prominant pastor who gave me that book and showed him where the book was in error. I even went to a theological college to buy reference books to show the meanings of the original greek words and prove that Jesus is not God. I presented all of this to him for his consideration. His reply... you sure do know the bible and you made a couple typing errors. You don't even need to be religious to know that the Trinity was a concept that none of the bible charcters knew anything about, it is not mentioned in the bible or proven by the bible and that this concept along with a hell of burning torture were developed by the Catholics to maintain their grip on the uneducated people they were oppressing. Any good encyclopedia will tell you that.

I may try to add to this while I'm on vacation but if I don't I will when I get back. In the mean time, if anyone is in the Tucson area, let me know and maybe we can do some riding or something. I'm officially on vacation

[ledofthezep]

[rjvoight]

Holyman, there is no doubt you "know the Bible". Your problem is you interperet the Bible using the logic of men. You try to use your wisdom to explain the mystery of God.

 

Colossians 1:8-10

See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elemetary principles of the world rather than acorrding to Christ. for in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority.

 

1 Corinthians 2:6-

Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age, nor of the rulers of this age who are passing away; but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wsdom, which God redestined before the ages to our glory; the wisdom which none of the ruleres of this age has understood; for if they had understood it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

 

1 Corinthians 3:18-19

Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become foolish that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is writtent "He is the one who catches the wise in their craftiness".

 

To everyone who has read this thread. Search out your own answers. Holy has his views. I have presented a different view, which is Christ as our Savior. Check it out for yourselves. Grab a Bible, grab book like More than a Carpenter, its only 127 pages in larger print, easy to read. This is important stuff.

 

Later Y'all

 

RJV

[Holyman]

rj did you think before you wrote what you wrote?

You started it out with agreeing that I know the bible, then you quote very very valid scriptures and then you tell everyone to buy a book by some guy who promotes the traditions that the Catholic church made up 400 years after Jesus died.

When have I ever supported the traditions of men or tried to sway people from the bible? I have directed all who would listen back to the example of Jesus himself and his closest followers and not the traditions of men like the pagan holidays, the support of men instead of the support of God and the "I believe I'm saved so I'm saved" concept.

Here's the long and short of it all...

(Ecclesiastes 12:13-14) 13 The conclusion of the matter, everything having been heard, is: Fear the [true] God and keep his commandments. For this is the whole [obligation] of man. 14 For the [true] God himself will bring every sort of work into the judgment in relation to every hidden thing, as to whether it is good or bad.

 

You can say you're saved and try to say that once you've called on Jesus for salvation then you can do whatever you want. The fact is... man's whole obligation is to fear God and KEEP his commands. Not just hear them, not just ask for help and not just take the help when it's offered. But fearing God's disapproval and the continuous effort to keep his commands. And only those who endure to the end of their lives will be saved.

I would recommend putting the teachings of those guys who just want to sell books aside and read what the bible really says.

[rjvoight]

I agree that you know your way around the bible. I do not agree that you know the bible correctly. Knowing how to navigate through the bible is not the same as understanding the bible. Over and over again you have made points using portions of scripture. Over and over I have expanded those same scriptures to include versus before and after your quotes to disprove your own theories. I have never used my own knowledge or reasoning to dispute anything you have said. I have allowed the word of God to speak for itself and prove itself.

 

I have never personally attacked you for your views and or beliefs and i won't. I however disagree with you on many many fronts. I do not have any expectation that you will be swayed by the arguments that I put forth. I simply want to tell you and everyone else about the wonders of Salvation through Christ.

 

As to Josh McDowell and "more than a carpenter" I appreciate your opinion on the book but I disagree with you. (Big surprise I am sure ) In no way do I suggest that any book would replace the Bible, that is the first place anyone should look when they have questions about Christianity.

 

I am more than willing to review your views on Christ and I am somewhat curious as to how you biblically support your beliefs.

 

RJV

[banshee04le]

I am more than willing to review your views on Christ and I am somewhat curious as to how you biblically support your beliefs.

Yeah, me too because every book of the bible, new and old testament, is about Gods reason and plan for sending Christ into the world, and according to holyman the only purpose Christ serves is to set an example of a perfect life, balance out the sins of Adam (thats goofy) and, finally, to give us all a channel to go through to talk to God. Thats the whole story of the purpose of Christ and therefore the whole purpose of the story of the Bible according to holyman. Holyman says that Christ was not empowered with Saving Grace which is what the Bible is all about, Salvation for those willing to repent, believe AND accept and then let the holy spirit work in them while striving to not be neutralized by satan.

 

old testament Joel 2:32

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered.

 

new testament Romans 10:13

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved

 

old testament Hosians 6:6

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

 

new testament Matthew 9:13

But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

 

Romans 2:24

yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. AMEN.

 

Romans 3:10

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.

[Wallrat]

Welp...that does it. Thanks to LE's latest post I'm proud to announce that every verse in the bible has now been transcribed here to the HQ Good job guys!

 

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