EASTER

[Brooke]

I come from Southwestern Wyoming, and the area has a very healthy mormon population,

My best friend in high school has quite possibly the best outlook on religion...when we went to college together he endured a lot of attacks from people on campus trying to shake his faith and convert him to something else and blah blah....and he looked at me one day and said this, and to me, its classic gold...."I am sick of all this religious debate I always face, I am sick and tired of trying to defend my stance and the way I was raised and being told that my lifestyle is wrong..I have this opnion...When I was growing up, my religion taught me that I should be a better person, that I should strive to do good...now I havent always followed it to the best of my abilities, and I have my short commings, but fuck, I am only human...all I ask is for people to mind their business, I'll mind mine, you do what you think is best, all I want to be is a good person, someone that people will look back and go, ya know, he was always there for me and was good to his wife and kids, not afraid to work, play, and be a nice guy"...now I know its not verbatim, he told me this about three years ago, and to me its the most profound words of advice...I didnt grow up in a religous household, and I have no religion I call my own...but in the end, Isnt it all about having your believes and convictions...sticking to them, and trying to be a better human..?

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i 100% agree. all i want is to do right by the people i love, and anyone else who reaches out for help in anyway. i dont want to have any regrets...and i dont mean that in the "party hard til u die have no regrets" sorta way...i mean it like, i feel ive been very fortunate in my life, and i want to give back as much as i possibly can. when i die, i want to look back and say 'wow, MY heart was touched in so many ways, by so many people, how fortunate i was' and be glad i didnt take any of that for granted, and never feel like i didnt do my best to give back to them 110%

if that gets me into hell, then fine, at least i did right by a hell of a lot of people while i was here.

[rjvoight]

Milo and Treads are right on in their postings. They have both brought up good points, points to think about.

 

Brooke, your attitude and fiery demeanor are what make you special. You have had some tough times. I have two brothers. I can not imagine what it would be like to watch one of them die.

 

Hear me out here for a little while (this is for everyone, I am not singling you out )

 

First, if you have access to a Bible, any Bible, I use the New American Standard, get it and Read the Gospel of John. 21(short compared to an average novel) chapters. It will explain things in ways that no matter how hard I try, I can not.

 

As stupid as this sounds, as you read it remember the basics of literature, ie; if you read a verse and it does not make sense or seems to be a contradiction, back up ten versus and make sure you are reading it in the context it is meant to be in. So many people get hung up on single versus. You would not grab a novel and read two paragraphs out of the middle of the book and claim to understand the entire book would you?

 

People have a thousand reasons for not wanting to choose Jesus Christ. A group of people that probabally have the hardest time are "the good people". People who go against the grain and fight to go above and beyond what society requires. Those who give time, who help others, who go the extra mile in every aspect of life. The thought that they could do all these great things and that God will still look at them when they die and say "I never knew you" makes no sense. It makes many of them angry.

 

So what is it exactly that keeps them from accepting that even though they are good people, they are still sinners, just like everybody else? It is our own human nature, PRIDE.

 

We as humans want to lift ourselves up, accomplish things on our own. Look at every culture, especiall ours in the US. Everything is measured by what we accomplish on our own, from the time we hit grade school through college and into the work force. The message is you can do it and you have to do it on your own. Earn it yourself.

 

The Bible says the one thing we can not earn on our own is a gift. It is given freely and can not be worked for. All you have to do is accept it. God has put the gift in front of everyone of us. We have until we die to pick that gift up off of the ground. When you pick the gift up, which is Christ, your name is written in the Book of Life.

 

When you die and stand before God and he asks why should I let you into my Heaven, and you see all of your failures and sins and mistakes and hurtful things and realize that even with all the good you have done, you still have fallen short, Jesus will say, "This one is mine" because you accepted what he has done for you.

 

Another problem people have is this; "If I accept the Bible is true, and now knowing it is true, I accept Christ as My Saviour, now I am accountable for my actions. Now the Holy Spirit is going to convict me when I do things I know are wrong......"

 

Many people make the mistake of believing if they accept Christ that all the fun in life is gone. That is so untrue, I can not explain it to you. All I can say is that Salvation through Christ and the life thereafter is phenomenal. You begin to live life as it was meant to be lived, fullfilling the plan God has for you. It is amazing.

 

Lets get personal for a second or two;

 

Brooke, you specifically with your personallity and strong will could do amazing things for God. Your life experiances that you have gone through at such a young age could be used in an amazing way and your life could be an amazing journey.

 

Locogato, if you are still reading this, same for you man. Your sense of humor and the countless times you have helped people out on this thread alone....I do not know you (or Brooke) personally, but I can tell you God could use you and fulfill your life in ways you never imagined.

 

This goes for every person reading this thread. God has a plan for everyone of us. All you gots to do is say, here I am.

 

I know I am rambling a little here and you are all thinking, who is this guy and what could he possibly know about me. I am nobody, some almost 30 year old guy who still has dillusions of being a pro Moto-Cross Racer, that is who I am....but God, well he is God and I know Him and I know he will take anyone who calls on Him

 

Finally, for this post anyway, Santan does not want any of this to sink in. He does not want any of you to pick up a Bible and read the Gospel of John. He does not even want you looking at this thread. He would much rather you all get angry at this "narrow path" that is continuously being set before you and click off this thread and never return. He wants you to believe the Bible is a "good" book but not the truth. He wants you to believe that you are good enough to get to heaven on your own. One of his greates successes is to simply neutralize people, making them believe there are many ways to Heaven and that "God would never really turn away a good person". Look at it this way, God does not turn away good people, good people turn away God.

 

Just food for thought......

 

RJV

[Brooke]

well RJV...

trust me, my hang ups about God, as you know and accept him, arent about not wanting to give up the 'fun' in life. im not an evil person, i live a quiet life, alone mostly, and what i want most is to spend the rest of my life with a loving husband having pleanty of non-sinful fun of our own. well, i assume sex with your husband isnt a sin...but anyways, my qualms with what you all are saying that God is, are just that he can be so shallow as to turn me away just because i dont believe in my heart that certain things ive done in the past are evil. i mean, sure i can say ill never do it again and really never do it again, but i cant honestly say i think that it was wrong of me to have done them before. not to say that ive never done anything sinful, everyone has, i know i have, and im ok with admitting to them, i just dont think that having some fun with a few ladies was one of them. and im not gonna lie and say i do believe it was wrong, just to get into heaven, cause, well, obviously God would know i was lying.

im all about sacrifice, have no problem doing it, but what do you do when you just disagree with God??

[rjvoight]

well RJV...

but i cant honestly say i think that it was wrong of me to have done them before. 

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That my dear is the greates thing. The things you have done in your past are just that. Everyone has regrets, some of those regrets are heavier than others. The Bible says homsexuality is wrong. No way around that. But the fact that you expeirimented and (i assume) enjoyed your relationships before have nothing to do with a choice you could make to follow Christ now.

 

Time for me to put my money where my mouth is and get real. I understand you do not believe that your relationships with women were "evil". Let me put it this way, my wife and I did not wait to have sex before we got married. Was that anymore evil than you having a relationship with a woman? No. Sin is sin and I fell flat on my face in that. I was young and rebelious and I ultimately ignored what I knew was right. My problem, I was a Christian as was she and we gave in. It was my fault I failed to be a Christian leader.

 

Do I regret it, yes. Did I at the time, no. Were there consequences for us, yes. My wife and I were so blinded by the physical relationship that we overlooked huge differences in our personalities and that caused a solid 3 years of hell. After Christian Counselling and dealing with our past both with eachother and issues we brought with us from growing up, we have had the most wonderful 4 years of our lives together. God brought us through that. God has forgiven us both and blessed our marriage and our lives.

 

You may not feel any regret for those actions, that is between you and God and I am not here to say you should or you should not. I hope only the best for you, and I hope that you listen to that tugging on your heart as Jesus calls to you...because he is....

 

I am telling you, grab a Bible and check out the Gospel of John, then if you make it through that look at Luke. It will put this whole thing in perspective.

 

RJV

[Holyman]

...because ive slept with a couple women. to him, this means not only am i automatically a drug addict apparantly (lol) but im going to hell.

I never said that you were a drug addict and I don't believe in Hell. {both things I explained in the last post we had}. I think most of the passionate arguments we have had are more due to personality conflicts than anything else. I never knew you made the sacrifices you made on your brother's behalf but I'm not surprised that you would do such a thing. And I'm not surprised that you want a stable hetero relationship that lasts the rest of your life. One thing you should understand is that God doesn't force people to obey him and he certainly doesn't give even the worst people {which you are not} the option of endless torture or complete bliss in heaven. God gives people the option to obey or not. They will still live out their lives. In the end though a life without God ends at death. A life in God's service can continue on forever. And it's not a life of endless death and misery, it's the life that he established for humans back in the garden of Eden... perfect surroundings, with all of your necessities cared for and all of your best friends right there with you. The thing is, to protect the innocent, god doesn't just let just anyone in there. Only those who love him and all he stands for gain this reward. His rules are simple enough for anyone at any time in history to follow. And he does not bend the rules or show favoritism. Some people seem to get away with things that god hates and also seem to get the benefits from those wrong actions. I liken this to drunk driving. The law in Illinois is .08 and I know plenty of people who have driven for years drunk as a skunk. They never get caught. Just because they don't get called on the wrong doesn't mean the law is not real and just because they get away with it doesn't make it right. And when they get a safe driving citation, it doesn't mean they are driving safely. All it means is they never got caught. God on the other hand can read a persons innermost feelings and see what kind of person they are. If these drunks work at a shelter for homeless children, it still doesn't make their drunk driving right and there is no amount of sacrifice they could make to "make up" for someone they killed while driving drunk. So those who know gods laws and still continue to break them because they enjoy doing it, will not gain god's blessing. Those who truly don't know the difference will be given a chance.

 

TRINITY:

 

Genesis 1:1-3

In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth. And the Earth was formless and void and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

 

Genesis 1:26

Then God said "Let Us make main in Our image" according to Our likeness;

 

 

Matthew 28:19

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

 

John 14:26

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

 

Colossians 2:9-10

For in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form....

 

 

These are some of the passages that lead me to believe God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same. It makes no sense to me. I am human and can not wrap my mind around it. I can not even try to explain it. I guess if God is a jealous God, we would not be "babtizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" if they were not one and the same.

None of these verses say or even imply that they are one and the same. One of the difficulties people have with the Trinity concept is that as you stated, "It makes no sense to me". And yet people are happy to dedicate themselves to a religious philosophy that is not supported in by the bible at all. If there is ever a passage in the bible you don't understand, and it is a doctrinal issue, then there is something wrong with it. God had the bible written for everyone, the uneducated as well as the well educated. And all doctinal matters need to be understood before a person can truly devote themselves to it. God doesn't want people to be robots who jump into a relationship with him just for the benefits. He wants people who decide for themselves that this is the way they want to live the rest of eternity. And for this reason, the entire bible is for our benefit and only by having a complete knowledge of gods purpose for mankind can a person gain it's benefits. 2Tim 3:16-17, John 8:31-32.

 

 

This is one scripture that many use to support the trinity... (Colossians 1:15) 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

But if you research the actual meanings of the underlined words, you will see that it completely disproves the entire concept.

[rjvoight]

One thing you should understand is that God doesn't force people to obey him and he certainly doesn't give even the worst people {which you are not} the option of endless torture or complete bliss in heaven. God gives people the option to obey or not. They will still live out their lives. In the end though a life without God ends at death. A life in God's service can continue on forever. And it's not a life of endless death and misery, it's the life that he established for humans back in the garden of Eden... perfect surroundings, with all of your necessities cared for and all of your best friends right there with you. The thing is, to protect the innocent, god doesn't just let just anyone in there. Only those who love him and all he stands for gain this reward. His rules are simple enough for anyone at any time in history to follow. And he does not bend the rules or show favoritism. Some people seem to get away with things that god hates and also seem to get the benefits from those wrong actions.

 

 

Those who truly don't know the difference will be given a chance.

 

 

 

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Holy, the things you have said above.....I need you to provide a Biblical backing for those statements. I do not claim to know my way around the Bible like you seem to, but I do not know where you have gotten this information. I searched in Romans, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Isaiah, Phillipians, I and II Corinthians and Revlation. And what does "those who truly don't know the difference" mean and when "will they be given a chance"?

 

What about Faith? What about your Soul, is it simply wiped out as if you have never lived or existed? That is exactly what Satan wants this world to believe, live hard, party hard cause when you die you die and that is it. I am surprised to hear you say this.

 

The debate over the "Trinity" which I acknowledge is not a term in the Bible but simply a man made term used to describe the essence of God being manifested in three parts, God the Father, Jesus the Son, and The Holy Spirit, is the least of my concerns.

 

As to Hell, Spritual Death is the state of being separated from God. (Ezek. 18:4) This can only be avoided by accepting Christ as Savior and Lord. Thos who do not will eventually suffer the second death. The second death is the future, eternal destiny of Satan and all his followers, including those who reject Christ. (REV 20:6) Revelation 20 is the closest thing that I can find that is even remotely close to what you are claiming, and it is not close.

 

Holy I will continue to search and I will pray for guideance from the Holy Spirit and look at this post later.

 

RJV

[Holyman]

First of all ,God who embodies love, is exactly opposite of the devil. So, unlike the devil, god has surprisingly enough, put retrictions on himself so that it is impossible for him to do things that go against his standards for justice. So it is impossible for god to lie {Heb 6:18}, impossible for god to test humans with evil things or wickedness {James 1:13}, it is impossible for God to learn anything since he is the author of all knowledge, it is impossible for god to die since he is everlasting and the source of all power and it is impossible for god to act against his standards that he has set for himself because it would be dishonest. When god puts a command on people that he expects them to obey, he warns them over and over again so that they cannot accuse god of acting contradictory to his own righteousness like satan has done pretty much from the very beginning. God has given us a free will so that we can decide to obey or not. God has no intention of torturing humans for sin. This is brought out in the laws he provided for his people. You have heard an eye for an eye. The punishment was to meet the crime. So the bible tells us that...(Romans 6:23) 23 For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.

This shows that god does not punish beyond the crime. It is all right here in a nut shell. Only God can give life because his son paid for what Adam threw away and the only price god expects for a life of sin, is death. Simple non existance. The bible further explains that the "soul" is not some etherial thing that floats around and lives on after death, it shows that the soul that sins, will die, that even animals are souls, and since we are all sinners, we will come to non-existance at death just like the animals. {Lev 24:1-18, Pr 12:10, Rev 16:3 (Ezekiel 18:4) 4 Look! All the souls-to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son-to me they belong. The soul that is sinning-it itself will die.

The doctrine of an everlasting soul is the result of corruption by early church leaders who wanted to confuse people about what comes after death. By saying that a persons soul lives on, religious leaders could keep unknowledgable parishoners paying for intercessory prayers on behalf of people who were supposedly condemned to hell {also a made up place of torture}. When people who have never had a chance to know god finally die, they don't know who jesus is so how could they call out to him for salvation? Look at brooke's brother who was far too sick to learn about God or what Jesus stood for. Should god send him to be tortured some more... for all eternity because he was sickly? NO!!! The bible explains that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous. (Acts 24:15) 15 and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.

Since there is no reason for God to second guess his own judgements against the wicked, the unrighteous are those who in ignorance were unrighteous. God will not bring the willfully sinful back to life {like those from the flood or sodom and gomorrah or any other judgement that he called down on people himself} just to sentence them to death again, remember the wages sin pays is death. So these dead "unrighteous" ones who never had the chance to know god will get the same chance that Adam had and that we all have, the chance to decide for themselves if they want to serve god after they know what that involves. And only those who decide to serve god will gain entry... (Galatians 5:19-21) 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, 20 idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, 21 envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning YOU, the same way as I did forewarn YOU, that those who practice such things will not inherit God's kingdom.

The righteous that will be resurrected will be those who lived a life of faith but who died before god judges the world. {Matt 25:31-46} Every resurrected human and those who live thru the end of this world, will be given a final chance to prove their loyalty to god. {Rev ch 20} After this time Satan and all those who have no love for god will be destroyed. The rest will be given what Adam and Eve threw away when they disobeyed. Perfect, endless life on the earth, with supervision from heaven.

So for those who like alot of drama, there really isn't any. You do wrong, you die. You do right, you get the rewards. No torture, no last minute choices, no floating souls. Ps 37:10-11,29

A relationship with god is based on the same pricipals as a good relationship with a human. Constant, open, communication, the desire to be pleasing to the other person more than you please yourself, and never giving the other person a reason to doubt your motives or call into question your actions. So we not only need to have an understanding of who Jesus is, but what he stands for and we need to not just accept his love but demonstrate our love in return. Just like Jesus did...(1 John 2:3-6) 3 And by this we have the knowledge that we have come to know him, namely, if we continue observing his commandments. 4 He that says: "I have come to know him," and yet is not observing his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in this [person]. 5 But whoever does observe his word, truthfully in this [person] the love of God has been made perfect. By this we have the knowledge that we are in union with him. 6 He that says he remains in union with him is under obligation himself also to go on walking just as that one walked. italics added.

I'd be happy to enlarge on any of this but I thought I would keep this post to less than 6000 words OK maybe under 8000 words

[banshee04le]

After this time Satan and all those who have no love for god will be destroyed. The rest will be given what Adam and Eve threw away when they disobeyed. Perfect, endless life on the earth, with supervision from heaven.

So you think heaven will be on earth and the saved souls will be...what...biological

forms? I think of heaven as a collective conciousness of love and warmth and infinite wisdom and it is embodied in all of the light of the universe. Hell is all that is devoid of

the light...cold, dark, empty. It doesn't matter. RJV said it best, you like to put God in a box. You still have not answered me as to how your sins are more acceptable in Gods eyes than my sins. RJV also said it best that God punishes his own and that a Christian who is apart from God is the most miserable person in the world. THAT is Gods punishment for a life of sin. A true believer will never be happy in a life of sin.

If you become happy in a life of sin you have turned your back on God but God will NEVER turn his back on you.

old testament Joel 2:32

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered.

 

new testament Romans 10:13

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

old testament Genisis 15:16

And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

 

new testament Romans 4:3

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

 

old testament Hab. 2:4

The just shall live by faith.

 

new testament Galatians 3:11

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

[Holyman]

So you think heaven will be on earth

I never said that nor did I imply that. Heaven is NOT on earth.

What I said was exactly what the bible says... souls are living things. We are souls while we are alive and we are a dead soul when we are dead. There is no floaty thing that lives on after we die. The bible shows that souls live, eat, sin and die and animals are souls just like humans are souls. Doesn't exactly sound like a thing that lives forever while it's being burned or tortured.

I think of heaven as a collective conciousness of love and warmth and infinite wisdom and it is embodied in all of the light of the universe. Hell is all that is devoid of the light...cold, dark, empty. It doesn't matter.

And since you have made up your mind as to what the bible says instead of looking to the bible to actually find out what it says, you are happy with the result. Heaven is not a collective consciousness of love. Where did you find that in the bible? Are you also saying that God resides in the collective consciousness of humans? Are you saying that since heaven only exists in our minds then maybe God only exists in our minds too?

You still have not answered me as to how your sins are more acceptable in Gods eyes than my sins.

I never answered it because it is a ridiculous statement that I never made. A sin is a sin regardless of who is doing it. My sin, your sin, it doesn't matter. All sin is wrong no matter who is doing it.

If you become happy in a life of sin you have turned your back on God but God will NEVER turn his back on you.

So are you saying that as long as you are "saved", even if you do turn your back on God he will still reward you. Or are you saying that God does punish those who are saved if they go back to a life of sin?

You quoted scriptures but it doesn't say that the person who is saved is saved forever. Joel says the person will be delivered. Is being delivered the same as being saved?

Genesis says that believing in the lord is righteousness but is righteousness the same as being saved?

Romans says that Abraham believed in God and it was righteousness but the demons also believe in God are they righteous too? Are the demons saved?

Habakuk and Galatians both say you need to live by faith, implying that it is a life long journey and not some sort of achievement. If you live a life of crime does that mean you stole some candy from the store once when you were a kid because you felt deep in your heart you needed it? Does that make you a life-long criminal? See the difference? Living by faith is not something you do once. It is a life-long goal you work at every day.

There are no passages in the bible that I am aware of that show that once a person has expressed faith in Jesus that they are at that point and for all time to come saved from the negative effects of willfully disobeying god's laws. Even Satan was an angel who turned bad, is he saved too? How could he not know and accept Jesus as the only way for humans to gain God's blessing? Is he too stupid to read? And what about those who never had a chance to know anything about jesus their whole life and died of old age not knowing about him? Are they burning in hell now? Does God torture people for not knowing any better? Maybe you should get out your bible and actually look up some of this stuff.

[banshee04le]

I have and so again I will ask, why would God show more mercy for your sins than for mine? Because you don't trouble yourself to vote (which has already been disproved by scripture, but you fail to recognize), or because you take the easy way out at the time of holidays, which again has been debunked by fellow Christians?

 

You quoted scriptures but it doesn't say that the person who is saved is saved forever. Joel says the person will be delivered. Is being delivered the same as being saved?

It is very clearly the same:

old testament Joel 2:32

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered.

 

new testament Romans 10:13

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

Thats pretty clear isn't it?

 

 

old testament Hosians 6:6

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

 

new testament Matthew 9:13

But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

 

 

Romans 2:24

yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. AMEN.

 

Romans 3:10

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.

[Holyman]

I have and so again I will ask, why would God show more mercy for your sins than for mine? Because you don't trouble yourself to vote (which has already been disproved by scripture, but you fail to recognize), or because you take the easy way out at the time of holidays, which again has been debunked by fellow Christians?

Again, I never said that I would receive more mercy. God decides who to extend mercy not me.

You have also not proven that I should vote and you have not shown that being involved in the Holidays is in any way shape or form approved by God.

 

old testament Joel 2:32

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered.

 

new testament Romans 10:13

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

Thats pretty clear isn't it?

I think I finally understand. When God has "delivered" someone, they are saved.

Like when the Israelites called out to God for deliverance and were delivered from egypt. Like Exodus 18 which says repeatedly that they were delivered. Right?

 

old testament Hosians 6:6

What is Hosians?

And what is the point you are trying to make with these other verses...? Romans 2:24 and 3:10.

[locogato11283]

this is still goin on?? geeeeez...

[ledofthezep]

Go Darwin!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

j/k...

[rjvoight]

Holy Quote : When people who have never had a chance to know God finally die, they don't know who Jesus is, how could they call out to him for salvation?

 

Reason for our Guilt: Romans1:18-23

 

for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the word His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood though what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks but they became futile in there speculations, and their follish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four footed animals and crawling creatures.

 

This was written to the gentiles/non-Jews in Rome. It is an explanation to them of how they could be held responsible to what was at the time considered to be the God of Israel. The point, men know God. They look at creation and the world and they know God. This is pointed out again later in

 

Romans 2:14-16

 

for when Gentiles who do not have the Law, do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law are a law to themeselves. 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, teir conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Chris Jesus.

 

So what happens is man, instead of recognizing God and seeking him out, they Romans 1:22-23 Professing to be wise, they become fools and exchange the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four footed animals and crawling creatures.

 

So with that we end up with evolution or Agnostic beliefs or any number of other beliefs. We think we are more wise than God and make our own rules about how life should go and how death and life after is going to work.

 

To answer your statement, we are all without excuse according to Romans 1:20.

 

 

Now as to Act 24:15

having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, th there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked

 

This verse does nothing to support your theory that the wicked get a second chance after they die. In Chapter 24 Paul has been accused by the Jewish population and is standing trial before gov. Felix of Rome. Paul is showing he is no different than his accussors other than he is a follower of Christ.

 

Revalation Chapter 20

 

Vs 1-3 Satan is bound for a thousand years after Christ has returned.

 

Vs. 4-6 Saints reign for 1000 years with Christ.

Vs 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed...

 

Vs 7-10 Satan is released and then ultimately vs 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the ladke of fire and brimsone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

Vs 11-15 Great White Throne of Judgement, all who have not accepted Christ, are judged by their works....and all will find that their works were not enough.

 

Vs 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire....described in vs 10.

 

So where do you see someone being given a second chance after they die?

 

You refrence Matthew 25:31-46 again describing judgement of the Gentile Nations, starting in vs 41 Jesus himself speaks directly to those who do not accept him as savior telling them to "depart from me accuresed ones into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels. Look at Matthew 7:21-23.

 

Again where do you see someone being given a second chance after they die? Also your quotes make a pretty strong case for the Hell you say does not exist.

 

As to Satan,

Isaiah 14:12-14 gives insight to his persona, he wanted to be God, ascend higher than God.....put himself over God.

[rjvoight]

We have covered this before, if you are saved, you are saved. Nothing you or any other person does can take you out of the Fathers Hands. There is plenty in the Bible to support this.

 

RJV

 

 

John 10:7 Truly tryly I say to you I am the door of the sheep.

 

John 10:9 I am the door if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out of fine pastures.

 

John 10:10 The thief (Santan) comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they might have life and might have it abundantly.

 

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd and I know My own and My own know Me.

 

John 10::25 I am the resurrection and the life, he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who  lives and believes in Me shall never die.

 

John 10:28-30  I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one  shall snatch them out of My hand.  My Father who has given tehm to Me is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.  I and the Father are one.

 

Yes, I believe if you truly accept Christ with all of your heart and soul, you are heaven bound, even if you fall flat on your face in your life.  Once you are a child of God, nothing you do, nothing anyone else does can take that away from you.  If you chose to turn your back on God, the Holy Spirit will  deal with you and you will never find peace until you come back around. 

 

John 14:26  But the Helper, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance  all that I said to you.

 

If a person comes to a point of religion, thinking to themselves, "so I say this prayer and accept this Jesus and then I got a free ticket to do whatever I want with no consequences" then they are not seeking forgiveness or to make Jesus the Lord of their life. 

 

Corinthians 6:14-15  For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law, but under grace.  What then? shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?  May it never be!

 

RJV

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