EASTER

[banshee04le]

I rarely forget to proof read.

What I meant was Jesus never had anything to do with Christmas and never was a part of Christmas AND

The idea that God supports the pledge of allegiance is ridiculous and goes against the bible itself.

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Your thoughts are irrational IMO. Christmas is celebrated in GOOD SPIRIT by all...the spirit of GIVING and the underlying message of recognizing the birth of our saviour

Jesus Christ is not missed or forgotten.

The idea that God supports the pledge of allegiance may be ridiculous but the idea that

the founders of our country supported their own beliefs in God is not ridiculous.

[Brooke]

so you cant be faithful to two things at once? love your country and your God?

[Holyman]

Your thoughts are irrational IMO. Christmas is celebrated in GOOD SPIRIT by all...the spirit of GIVING and the underlying message of recognizing the birth of our saviour

Jesus Christ is not missed or forgotten.

The idea that God supports the pledge of allegiance may be ridiculous but the idea that

the founders of our country supported their own beliefs in God is not ridiculous.

Christmas may be celebrated in good spirit but it doesn't mean it is approved by God. It may be a recognition of the birth of Jesus but there is not only no record of Jesus celebrating a birthday or any other faithful bible character celebrating a birthday but the date that that the celebration is on is also the date of a pagan ritual. {see gixxers second comment about the solstic}. So in fact, Jesus never had anything to do with christmas. The only thing that Jesus did tell people to remember is the date of his death.

 

so you cant be faithful to two things at once? love your country and your God?

I don't remember seeing the word faithful in the pledge. You pledge allegience to the flag. What does that mean? It is not a simple expression of faith in God or it would say "I pledge allegiance to God and I will remain faithful to the flag". If you are relying on God, you don't need the flag, unless you think that God is also the one directing your flag or your nation. And even with that you don't need the flag.

[Ducman]

How can you pledge allegiance to the flag and be a nation under God at the same time? They are 2 entirely different entities on opposite ends of the spectrum.

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I think that it is just basically trying to say that the Nations founding fathers were Christian, and used their Chritian based moarality and philosophy as a template for creating laws and a structure to govern the nation. I'm a non believer, but I wouldn't take "under God" out of the pledge of allegiance. I interpret it as in this nation you must live by rules established by the belief in God, which is fine by me since they resonable are fair to everone, or at least enforced evenly on everone.

 

Not trying to get off topic, just commenting on something I thought was interesting.

 

What about St. Patricks Day? A holiday that is named after a religious figure, but all I know about it is that your supposed to wear green or you'll get pinched, everyone drinks alot of green beer, and in Chico, if your one of the first 50 people into the bar on this day you get a free T-shirt but you have to get in line at 5am.

[rjvoight]

So it started pagan, was still the same holidays in purpose but the characters were modified to make "christians" think it was different or to make pagans un-christian behaviour acceptable and now the hoiday's are back to their original pagan purpose. So should a christian do it or not?

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1Corinthians 8:6

Concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for HIm, and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through him......

 

Skip to vs. 8, But food will not commend us to God, we are neither the worse nor the better if we do eat.

 

The rest of the chapter talks about causing someone else to stumble in their faith. For example, if by me celebrating Christmas or Easter it makes another Christian stumble and fall away or a non-believer turn away from God because they do not understand why I would partake in a pagan festival, then I should not do it.

 

Personally, with the knowledge from above, I have no problems with Easter and or Christmas. It is a time to celebrate the forgiveness and peace I have been lucky enough to have found in Christ. No, that Christ found me.

 

There is a difference between being under the Law (Old Testament) and Being Justified Through Christ and living under Grace (New Testament).

 

RJV

[rjvoight]

Alls i know is, i love cadbury cream eggs, and thhis great bunny hat on my niece

 

Happy Easter everyone!

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That is so cute, it made me smile, I must be getting soft........

[iceman]

Holyman, you said some deeeeeep shit. I am wildly confused at all that. I get candy because jesus died. Go jesus.

[Holyman]

rjv you missed the point I am asking. The celebration of Easter is a pagan holiday and so is Christmas. They have nothing to do with Jesus, they were immoral holidays that were re-arranged to make them sound Christian.

The rest of the chapter talks about causing someone else to stumble in their faith. For example, if by me celebrating Christmas or Easter it makes another Christian stumble and fall away or a non-believer turn away from God because they do not understand why I would partake in a pagan festival, then I should not do it.

You are also missing the point here with this statement. The example you gave was for people who ate foods that were available for sale at pagan temples. Eating foods sacrificed to idols was a sin but these temples would open stores or restaurants near the temples to sell off the foods that were not yet offered to the pagan gods. Since these foods were clean, a Christian could rightly purchase them or eat at one of these restaurants. But to the weak person who was struggling to leave false worship, seeing a person who claimed to be a christian eating at a temple restaurant may stumble them. The person without a complete knowledge or a weak conscience may not see that it is OK to buy these foods. Thus verse 7 says... 7 Nevertheless, there is not this knowledge in all persons; but some, being accustomed until now to the idol, eat food as something sacrificed to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.

The reasoning continues in verses 8-13 8 But food will not commend us to God; if we do not eat, we do not fall short, and, if we eat, we have no credit to ourselves. 9 But keep watching that this authority of YOURS does not somehow become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone should see you, the one having knowledge, reclining at a meal in an idol temple, will not the conscience of that one who is weak be built up to the point of eating foods offered to idols? 11 Really, by your knowledge, the man that is weak is being ruined, [your] brother for whose sake Christ died. 12 But when YOU people thus sin against YOUR brothers and wound their conscience that is weak, YOU are sinning against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat flesh at all, that I may not make my brother stumble.

As you can see in verse 10, eating foods offered to idols is something you would NOT want to induce someone to do since it is wrong in God's view.

So since Easter and Christmas are still pagan, it goes beyond an issue of whether or not someone is stumbled by a personal decision between one decision that is right and another decision that is right but may stumble someone who is weak. It is whether your behaviour is directly offensive to God who hates pagan rituals or not.

I enjoy this interchange and hope that you are not offended by my reasonings.

 

Holyman, you said some deeeeeep sh@t. I am wildly confused at all that.

Which part??? I enjoy explaining

[rjvoight]

Not offended at all and I respect your view. When it is all said and done what matters is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Matters of "religion" are important but secondary in importance to salvation. I got to get to work and if I don't leave now I wont make it to Starbuck . See ya....

 

RJV

[Cotton eyed Joe]

Alls i know is, i love cadbury cream eggs, and thhis great bunny hat on my niece

 

Happy Easter everyone!

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HAHAHAHAHA That picture is awesome. I was gonna get something like that for my pup, and I'm sure my sister had one on her 3 month old.

[Holyman]

And my point is how can you have a good relationship with someone if you dis-obey the very rules that your relationship is based on?

I'd like to draw an analogy that may help explain where I'm coming from.

A man who is a General in the army has control over a huge number of soldiers. Some respect the warfare that is being waged and the reasons for it, but most don't. The opposing side {the leader of of which was a former student of the General} has made accusations against the General that he is unfit to rule and should abdicate his role as leader.

Since this is a direct affront to his leadership, the General allows time for the members of the opposite camp and his own to see which camp truly has better leadership.

During a very decisive battle, the General sends his son to defend the honor of his camp. His son is the second in command and has all the same military knowledge the General has. While engaged with the enemy, the son exposed himself to enemy soldiers to allow his troops to escape harm and provide a warning to the rest of the camp. The Generals troops were overjoyed that their lives were spared and that the warning was given to provide safety for the rest of their troops.

400 years later, the story of this brave soldier who gave his life for the safety of the troops was still being told. By this time the reasons for the battle had become less important to the army since most of them didn't really want to listen to the General anyway. But they didn't want to change sides. So in an effort to bring both sides together, the Generals camp decided to have a day of rememberance for his brave son who died to save his camp and warn the rest. Before the brave son died he told his freed soldiers to remember the day in which he died and appreciate his sacrifice but since these soldiers didn't want to make the enemies upset, and they wanted to make their army look bigger than it really was, they picked the date of a celebration the enemy already had. This date was one of the reasons the battle was waged to begin with. The activities that were carried on at these celebrations were a direct affront to the General and all he stood for. What is even worse, the celebration made only a minor mention of his sons bravery and instead of flying the flag of the General's nation, the opposing sides flag was used. They even named the celebration after a good for nothing fallen soldier of the opposing camp.

What should the General think of those soldiers who claim to be part of his army who fly the enemy's flag during a celebration that was one of the reasons he went to war while saying it's a way of solemnly remembering the brave actions of his son?

 

Here's a more modern example...

Let's say 70% of bush's current army thinks he's a fool who is too strict or makes unreasonable demands on them but they stay in the army for the benefits.

Hundreds of brave soldiers are killed in a decisive battle that save thousands and thousands of their fellow soldiers and provide safety for their families and provide hope for peace for the indefinite future.

The remaining soldiers, influenced by the 70% of the army who doesn't want to be there, decide to have a memorial service for the fallen soldiers. But to smooth things over with the enemy, they have the celebration on Saddams birthday and fly the Iraqi flag. They turn this date into a chance to eat little Saddam shaped candies and everywhere you go, there are Saddam's favorite deserts and Saddam birthday cake. In fact they even put up Saddam posters on the front doors of their houses and make it into a day where they sing Saddam songs and go to church for a Saddam day memorial service where the preacher welcomes everyone to the Special Saddam day services. This is such an important day that alot of people only go to church on Saddam day. When the services are over, the preacher stands at the front door and says "happy Saddam day and don't forget to get some Saddam candies for the kids on the way out". A few days before Saddam day, a small group of appreciative soldiers met together on the day their brave men fell and really spent time reflecting on what they have because of the sacrifice of these brave fallen ones. They didn't have a big party, they didn't hand out candy to the kids, they showed honor and respect. And they certainly didn't wave the Saddam flag or have any Saddam cake.

With all this being said, how do you think bush should react? Is there anyone in this scenario really showing respect for the fallen soldiers? If rewards were given out for faithfully adhering to purpose of the battle, who would be rewarded?

[rjvoight]

 

 

Couple observations. From your statements I assume it is safe to say you do not celebrate Easter or Christmas. The other thing I noticed is you appear (I am not saying you do as fact just that from the posting I percieve that so feel free to correct me) to focus on the death of Christ as the day that should be remembered.

 

Being a Christian, the death of Jesus is extremely important because it fullfills the prophecy would be rejected and put to death by his own. But the story does not end with his death. The single most important fact is that Christ rose from the dead three days later, defeating death and sin for all. Without the reserection of Christ our faith is in vain. If Christ did not rise from the dead as the Bible claims then the Bible is false and everything in it should be dismissed.

 

Christmas has become a time to celebrate the birth of Christ. I understand your concerns but God is bigger than any pagan god or celebration. I know people are saved at Christmas time. The same goes for Easter only it is celebrating the ressurection. The Bible says the heavens rejoice at the salvation of just one person. If only one is saved on those days the Kingdom of God is expanded which as Christians is our ultimate purpose for being on this Earth.

 

As to quotes in Corinthians I will need more time to research and collect my thoughts to respond.

 

Have a good one,

 

RJV

[Holyman]

I assume it is safe to say you do not celebrate Easter or Christmas

I don't celebrate any pagan holidays.

I noticed is you appear (I am not saying you do as fact just that from the posting I percieve that so feel free to correct me) to focus on the death of Christ as the day that should be remembered.

Jesus said... (1 Corinthians 11:23-25) 23 For I received from the Lord that which I also handed on to YOU, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was going to be handed over took a loaf 24 and, after giving thanks, he broke it and said: "This means my body which is in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me." 25 He did likewise respecting the cup also, . . . .

 

Besides that, you've got no resurrection if there's no death.

You are correct that Jesus fulfilled the prophesies that referred to the messiah but many people don't understand why he had to die and could not have just showed up and then left.

You need to have faith in the resurrection because if Jesus was not resurrected, then everything he said was crap and he was just another crazy guy who thought he was special. But this still doesn't explain why he HAD to come to the earth to die.

People putting faith in Jesus on Christmas day or Easter is fine but it doesn't change the fact that these holidays are an abomination and offensive to god. There is a very good example of how god treats pagan holidays and those who celebrate them no matter what they call them.

EXODUS 32

1 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

2 And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me.

3 And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron.

4 And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

5 And when Aaron saw it , he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the LORD.

6 And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.

7 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves :

8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

 

And these verses show what happened as a result of them having this offensive celebration...

27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

29 For Moses had said, Consecrate yourselves to day to the LORD, even every man upon his son, and upon his brother; that he may bestow upon you a blessing this day.

30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.

31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.

32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin --; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

34 Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.

35 And the LORD plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made.

So these people were saved from imminant death in Egypt by gods direct intervention on their behalf but because they wanted to call a pagan party with the pagan symbol as it's centerpiece a party to God, he authorized the deaths of 3000 of them and an untold number who died from the plagues. Knowing that God always acts in justice, how could he put 3000 to death for offensive pagan rituals and then not act in justice for those who do the same thing now?

[banshee04le]

Ok, so Christmas should be just another day as far as your concerned but you say that

a good Christian should recognize Easter, or the death and resurection of Christ. What would be the correct date to recognize this, since it's current established date was set only to transcend and align with an old pagan holiday? Since current Easter traditions do not meet the standards perceived from you interpretations of the word, again I ask, how should a good Christian family that has come together on Easter conduct themselves? Give me an outline of the day...do we go to church? Whats for dinner? Don't want to accidentally eat any foods that were sacraficed to idols Perhaps instead of eating candy, the children should scoot around on their knees all day until they are bloody while reciting passages? Is it just the Easter bunny that is offensive? They could probably make a chocolate Jesus. Would that be better?

[Holyman]

The simple answer to that is do what Jesus did. He told his closest followers to hold a remeberance of him on the same night as the passover celebration. This year it was last Thursday after sundown.

When you go to a funeral for a repected member of the community or a loved family member do you go there and hand out chocolates, throw a party and name the party after the person who killed your dear friend?

When I had the opportunity to visit the Arlington cemetary I went to the tomb of the unknown soldier to pay my respects for their great sacrifice. As I looked around just prior to the changing of the guard, people were reclined on the steps of the tomb, snacking on chips, kids running around making a bunch of noise. Just before the changing of the guard, a high ranking soldier explained that this was a place to show respect for the fallen soldiers and not a picnic area. He told everyone that it was appropriate to be silent and be standing to honor these fallen ones and as a demonstration of their respect. I don't think it would be too much to ask to show as much respect for Jesus who gave far more than any other person in history.

Another personal example... I went to Venezuela for vacation. Some of the people in our group thought it would be a kind gesture to hand out some sweets to the kids on the day we planned to go into town. A couple days later, we rented a car and headed into town. As we approached town, there were cars parked all along the sides of the streets. Families were getting out and walking along the roads toward town. As we drove by, the people stared at us in an angry way. We were smiling like idiots because we were having a good time and planned to spread a little joy to the kids. Because the scowling was so pervasive, we decided to just drive thru town quietly and do the candy drop some other time.

Once we got back to the resort we asked the guy at the rental place why there were so many people on the road. He said that the president of the country had died recently and the funeral service was being held in the town that we drove thru. As it turns out the president died under mysterious circumstances and the new president {who was staying in the resort across the bay from ours} was suspected of foul play. I can only imagine what would have happened if we had gone into town and desecrated their funeral observance by getting the kids all stoked up on free candy. Obviously it was a time to reflect on the memory of the fallen leader and show respect.

So the remembering of Jesus great sacrifice should not be a time to party and certainly should not be an opportunity to promote the pagan beliefs that he worked tirelessly to protect his followers from.