Social Security

[Holyman]

First of all the comment about Bush not be able to count was tongue-in-cheek and the statement that the more you make the less you pay was pure sarcasm.

However, the laws are made so that the investments/puchases/expenditures you make as a business owner are tax deductible. So yes you well drilling buddy may be able to write off a $100,000 rig so that $100,000 worth of taxes he doesn't pay. The insurance company I worked for needs the vehicles to go make inspections. But who got taxed for the use of the vehicle? Me. The shmuck making $45k a year. Just a side point, my wife stays home and home schools my 16 year old cousin we are guardian for so it's not like we're "upper class" DINK's. {Dual Income No Kids}

The huge companies can "invest" in almost anything including executive retreats, limousines, banquets etc. and write it all off. In fact the insurance company I worked for was required to spend millions of dollars of "profit" or refund it to the policy holders. So what did they do with the money? There were more useless meetings than you could shake a stick at. There was even a 2 day meeting at the Hilton in Chicago that everyone was required to attend. They had free jet boat rides in Lake Michigan 1/2 a day of "free time" and then some ridiculous "we're here to have fun" party where they gave us a sob story about how the company needs to make more money. This insanity cost tens of thousands of dollars but because it was an easy write off, they blew it on these lavish parties instead of returning it to the policy holders.

The government will allow a company to operate at a "loss" for 2 years out of 5 and they will often tolerate more if it "looks like you are trying to make money" {according to my tax guy who used to be an IRS auditor}. The only people who don't get the write offs are the middle class who get 30% or more of their check taken away and have no way of getting a write off. Well there is the child credit and uhhh that's about it. And the middle income folks who have alot of kids sure aren't rolling in the greenbacks from the child credit. So if I make $75K and you make $250K, you still make 3x as much as I do and chances are you get more company perks than I do and better legal help than I do because I am busy scraping to have a college fund for the kids and get a reliable car to get to work. Your company will just send out the limo.

 

According to an online engineering resource, a recent U.S. study reports that China is losing more manufacturing jobs than the U.S. 

That's an easy one. They are losing jobs because there is less money in the pockets of the middle class to blow on frivolous Chinese goods. I'm willing to bet that basic needs markets like clothes are not hurting.

Also if you followed the global markets a little better you would realize that Europe is depending on us for goods more than ever why? Because those greedy bastards get more for their money. As someone who works for a Global company I have noticed that we recently have brought manufacturing to the US from Canada and Scotland due to costs, and competency.

A strong currency means nothing when you can't purchase your own goods with it.

You nailed it right there. Instead of the US having the majority of the purchasing power in the world which was the result of well paid skilled workers, the US has now taken the back seat to other "Global" players who can now dictate to the US how much they will pay for our products. Yes there is some manufacturing coming back to the us but it's not because of the know how, it's because of the price. The US companies that buy from China, India, Mexico etc. are not buying there because their engineers are better, it's because it's cheaper to make things over there and the dollar used to be strong. Now that the economy of this country is in the toilet, heck why not just make it in the US. The US can now compete globally on the wages. It all comes down to cost vss benefit.

This can also explain the slight increase in jobs.

And Bush, Clinton, Bush, Reagan and the Congress and Senate are all greedy manipulators so I hold none of them in a higher position than any of the others.

[KGL]

Our biggest competition in our industry (Vinyl Replacement Windows) is going to be China , mainly on cost as their quality sucks ass , when their quality does improve they will be a tad more of a threat but keep in mind they have to ship what they produce over seas and in a time sensitive industry they wont be able to overcome that.

I agree we need more education opportunities in school such as manufacturing and Tech. prep programs to get kids interested in a trade early...

Fortunately in our area these are still in place and the NEA hasnt been able to

replace them with "feelgood skills" , " how to be average" , or " tolerance 101"

Im still looking for this armageddon economy you speak of but as of yet I cannot locate it... I will however keep searching.

[Holyman]

That's right Holyman it's obviously the governments fault that your company is a lying cheating bastard of a company. Here's an important statement for you "Not all companies are like that".

In my experience the big ones are like that and alot of the little ones too. I'm not saying they are cheating on their taxes, I'm saying they know how to work the system. And when the money dried up a couple years later from the company's mismanagement, then the layoffs came and they dumped people who were literally months from retirement and screwed them royally out of their benefits.

Oh and another thought all these executive retreats are putting money in other businesses too, it's not like the money spent goes nowhere it may actually be paying for some guy who only makes $20K a year to send his children to college.

I must have missed something. How does the abuse and mismanagement of millions of dollars help a poverty level guy put his kids thru college?

Since it's the trend to talk about your wife let me put my situation in perspective my girlfriend graduated with me in 2003 she being a Chemical engineer. So that makes us 2 of the 60,000. But she has no intentions of ever practicing engineering. She went straight to law school and is there now. We have plans of getting engaged and married as soon as we live in the same state. Here's the kicker she can easily make 3 times+ what I do and she will be a stay at home mother when we have kids, plain and simple, I will also pay for all my children to attend college. My opinion is if I bring someone into this world then I'm responsible to give them the tools to succeed love, shelter, morals and education. You'd love meeting my girlfriends fellow classmates they are the most screwed up people ever. They'd rather get an abortion than put down a 15 year old dog with a broken leg. 99% of her class is liberal she is not. Her classmates brag about how their parents do marijuana.

I admire you for your dedication and the only thing I would change is that if you know you love this girl and want to spend the rest of your life together and produce children together, then why wait to get married. These are admirable qualities that more should immitate.

Seeing as we have manufacturing facilities in China I can tell you the quality sucks (I'm talking steel and steel craftsmanship) we have to make most of our equipment at other facilities and then send it to China for assembly.

The fact that your company still has manufacturing facilities in a country that produces inferior products shows me that the company is more concerned with profits than the product or the purchasers.

You do a considerable amount of complaining but tell me what's the solution???

In my view, requiring the big companies to actually pay taxes by reducing the loopholes they are throwing their cash thru would be a great start. I also feel that the small businesses that people would like to start would be more successful if they were given some of the breaks that the big fish get now. This would require less travel just to get employment since jobs would tend to be more localized. The third area is promoting cutting edge technology that would stay in this country. If you commit to being global on every level, you commit to tipping your hand to the competition. You are right that there are many machines that can be watched by a retard. So the competitive edge has been who can hire the cheapest retard. I say that an educated workforce can still do things that machines can't do. But most kids today are trained to use the machines that someone else made. Creativity needs to be encouraged. Right now there are alot of Americans who say "why should I make it or even think about making it when I can get a cheap one for xxx$". So these third world contries who have forced labor can churn out widgets and we keep buying 'em up. People really need to know the difference between quality and low price but since the economy is based on consuption, it really doesn't matter the quality of the item, it matters that you spent the money.

 

PS Kicker's done and I'm gonna try to remember to ship it out tomorrow

[Justintoxicated]

yea if you make 200,000 you pay more % in taxes than 60,000, thats not the issue. We are talking about Upper Class people not medium class. People that have enough money can get around paying taxes in many ways, one example of which I already stated where some billionare donates money to someone running for office for their campaign, then they write this off their taxes. The person in office can then pass laws, or make changes that will benefit the person who helped them with the money that got them into office. They owe them favors so the money was never really "donated" in some sense. This is how it works.

 

I do not Consider 200,000 a year income Upper class anymore, although our society makes us think it is (Most of us make less). The real upper class is much smaller and much more wealthy. I consider myself lower class only making 40,000 a year, although I am above the povery line, but not by much. Society has us all thinking we are in the mid-upper class if we are working for some place for over $15 an hour. But in fact if you lookat the wealth distribution in the US carefully, this is not the case.

 

I can't remember the recent statistics but in 1998 the top 1% of the population owned 38% of the wealth, and over the past 7 years it has only gotten worse. top 4% now owns over 60% of the wealth if I remember correctly than meansd the rest of us don't own jack shit. if the top4% owns 60% that makes them "upper class" the remainging 40% is divided amongst the rest of us. It's more of a 2 class system you see, Rich, Middle class and that is all.

 

http://www.fool.com/imo/2002/a020116.htm

this is the only thing I could dig up online in a few minutes, the other data I read was recorded in books.

 

Don't believe me? Go do some research.

 

Luckily our country is so wealthy that we are still better off as the middle class here than many other countries. However, I think we all should be getting a little more than we are, (everyone is middle and lower classes, even if your making 200,000 a year, you should be making more according to the distribution of wealth)

 

Push the throttle, it may not be Bushes fault this is the way it works, but he is the person that needs to correct it. I'm definately going to take the 2% of my social out that he has proposed, but 2% thats not shit!

Edited February 28, 2005 by Justintoxicated

[ledofthezep]

Don't you think it's just a little bit strange that Ronald Reagan had an operation on his asshole, and George Bush had an operation on his middle finger?

 

[Holyman]

So is that 1 operation or 2 ?

[ledofthezep]

LOL...you're guess is as good as mine.

[KGL]

I consider myself lower class only making 40,000 a year, although I am above the povery line, but not by much. Society has us all thinking we are in the mid-upper class if we are working for some place for over $15 an hour. But in fact if you lookat the wealth distribution in the US carefully, this is not the case.

I can't remember the recent statistics but in 1998 the top 1% of the population owned 38% of the wealth, and over the past 7 years it has only gotten worse. top 4% now owns over 60% of the wealth if I remember correctly than meansd the rest of us don't own jack shit. if the top4% owns 60% that makes them "upper class" the remainging 40% is divided amongst the rest of us. It's more of a 2 class system you see, Rich, Middle class and that is all.

Push the throttle, it may not be Bushes fault this is the way it works, but he is the person that needs to correct it. I'm definately going to take the 2% of my social out that he has proposed, but 2% thats not shit!

 

Sorry but we dont know what poverty is in this country... the only thing holding you back is yourself , no form of taxation or statistics will keep you from opportunity if you really want it. People that want to succeed are doing it and those who are content with where they are in life are staying there. Your own numbers show that more people are choosing opportunity not the poor getting poorer. That 2% is more than you would have recieved if the plan stays the same and also what will your 2% yield when youre ready to retire?

Another thing, due to so many years of brainwashing from Liberal programs we now have an entitlement mentality.The practice of " wealth re-distribution" where a single mom makes more on state aid than working only sets them up to be dependant on the govt. instead of doing for themselves... people arent willing to work for anything anymore and I believe its partially due to these programs enabling their dependance . Instead of bringing everyone up to high standards it has become the practice to lower them to "be fair"... well that gets you a bunch of non motivated unoriginal sponges who contribute nothing to society

You want sympathy? go look in the dictionary between SHIT and SYPHALLUS ...

thats where youll find my sympathy. (had to throw that gem in)

[Holyman]

Understood, but what I

[Holyman]

Well in my opinion it

Edited March 1, 2005 by Holyman

[Holyman]

Well the first thing about SS that needs to be understood is that it's like insurance and not a savings plan. On insurance, you pay a premium that gives you coverage for a specified amount of time. Once that time is up, you are no longer covered. So even if you are a homeowner that pays your insurance on time for 30 years, if your policy is expired, you are not covered.

SS payments that are pulled from your check don't go into a Holyman fund for me to pull out when I need them. They are to issue payments for people who qualify for those benefits. So just like insurance, you may pay in for a lifetime and never have a claim, you may also pay into SS and never get out what you put in. What makes it beneficial is that in the event something happens that is covered by the benefits offered, you paid in a relatively small amount compared to the benefits you may receive. I pay about $500 a year to insure my house against certain major losses. If I have a loss of $5000, that is 10 years worth of my premium. Most people realize that it is better for me to spend the $500 than to have to come up with the $5000. This principle of alot of people paying small amounts to cover a large group against unexpected losses makes it appealing to more people and so coverage can be extended to more people. The problem comes in when you try to cover everyone for everything or you don't keep enough cash on hand to cover unexpected or unforseeable expenses.

SS was intended to cover people against unexpected loss or difficulty. It then began to become so broad in scope that there was a chance of everyone at one time or another becoming a recipient. The funds were also not managed to allow for the baby boomers {as brooke had mentioned}. So basically the policy was pretty much stripped of funding and mismanaged.

Now for the benefits. As a wealthy Democratic nation and one who, at best sets an example in the world and at least pretends to be a compassionate nation, I feel that it would be a smudge on this countries reputation to allow the under educated and unintentionally misguided some form of support.

For example. I know of 2 families with these situations.

Family 1- Man and Woman married young and had had several children. He was a hard worker and did construction and got pretty good pay. They weren't getting rich, they were doing OK. The wife stayed home with the 5 kids and the husband worked. He was a smoker {cigarettes} and casual drinker {not a drunk}. While working his job, he hurt his back severely. He was out of work for quite some time. Their small savings disappeared. The youngest child had a severe asthma problem and the doctors recommended a move to a dryer climate. They move to southern Cal. on borrowed money. They did OK in Cali, the Dad got work and they recovered somewhat. During this time the Dad developed heart trouble. They moved back to Chicago to be closer to family and better health care. He struggled to get work and she had no marketable skills because of staying home with all of the kids. He was able to get SS but unfortunately died at 52. Now because the SS benefits were extended to his wife and surviving juvenile son, they did not have to become homeless and she was able to at least develop some usable skills. But who wants to hire a 55 year old with fresh secretary skills? Whatever the case, SS prevented them from being homeless. She to this day has no money to invest.

Family 2- Man and Woman get married... hard workers... smoked weed and drank but loved their 3 kids. Husband dies of cancer not even 40 years old. Wife was stay at home mom as much as she could but also worked and cared for dying husband because they didn't have health insurance and only a bare minimum life policy which couldn't even cover their bills let alone the medical expenses. He died in her arms at their home. Because she received SS benefits for the kids, she was able to keep their family home and eventually take enough classes to get some marketable skills but to this day has no nest egg.

I could go on but the fact remains that you only hear about the abuses and not the good. 16 year old punks who think they can just bring another baby in the world with the country to foot the bill is wrong. But it's not the baby's fault the parent was an idiot or died too young or didn't get a degree.

[bansheekid409]

who needs social security when you have kids

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

hey brooke, wanna help me work on my social security plan

[Holyman]

Well Push, I'd say that those people are criminals and deserve at least a couple weeks in jail to meditate on their fraud.

Running for Senate really wouldn't work because I doubt you are sleeping with enough special interest groups to buy you into office. And we already realize that most people are apathetic about it all anyway.

So what's the fix? I don't feel it can be scrapped all together but it too broken to work much longer the way it is now.

Having a bunch of kids is not the answer either IMHO. Unless you are already wealthy or you get some sort of grants, the average person could never afford to send 4,6,8, kids to college. So you are right back at the bottom of the food chain just scraping to get by.

[ledofthezep]

So you are right back at the bottom of the food chain just scraping to get by.

Aren't we all.

[Justintoxicated]

Sorry but we dont know what poverty is in this country... the only thing holding you back is yourself , no form of taxation or statistics will keep you from opportunity if you really want it. People that want to succeed are doing it and those who are content with where they are in life are staying there. Your own numbers show that more people are choosing opportunity not the poor getting poorer. That 2% is more than you would have recieved if the plan stays the same and also what will your 2% yield when youre ready to retire?

Another thing, due to so many years of brainwashing from Liberal programs we now have an entitlement mentality.The practice of " wealth re-distribution" where a single mom makes more on state aid than working only sets them up to be dependant on the govt. instead of doing for themselves... people arent willing to work for anything anymore and I believe its partially due to these programs enabling their dependance  . Instead of bringing everyone up to high standards it has become the practice to lower them to "be fair"... well that gets you a bunch of non motivated unoriginal sponges who contribute nothing to society 

You want sympathy? go look in the dictionary between SHIT and SYPHALLUS ...

thats where youll find my sympathy.    (had to throw that gem in)

331487[/snapback]

 

 

Hmmm, did I ask for sympathy? nope. Not everyone who is determined will make over 500,000 a year because that is their goal. Where the hell do you come up with this shit? if so everyone would be doing it and 4% of the people would not own 60% of the wealth! And how does this number show the poor getting wealthier? Are you smoking crack? I never said people should get an unfain amount of wealth, I compleatly agree on some of the things you said, But think about it man.

 

4% owns 60% of the wealth and the other 95% only owns 40%! Do you realize how much fucking money this is? Even if EVERYONES wages were doubled (and no not everyone deserves them to be this is jsut an example) those 4% would still own an unequal share of the wealth 4% would own 20% of ALL the wealth in the US. Then would still have 5 times as much cash as some of the most wealthy people (not talking about those ONLY making 1 million a year)

 

People in the United States do not know Poverty? Tell that to the people who are starving to death in our very own USA, and to those who cannot get health insurance that die of stupid causes that could easily have been prevented. And yea Other countries have it MUCH worse, as I have ALREADY stated.