Verrrry Intersting, was 9-11 a set up?

[Holyman]

When did Saddam kill those people?

If there was a known rapist wandering through my neigborhood, I would notify the legal authorities. I would not take the law into my own hands.

I didn't vote for Clinton either and the majority of the country who did should hold him responsible for whatever things they feel he failed on. OH WAIT... he's not in office any more is he? I guess you missed that opportunity.

I've been thinking of selling some intel to the government. All I need is a piece of sand paper with an X in the middle to show where the weapons are. Should be a big seller.

[Brooke]

When did Saddam kill those people?

youre joking right?

and honey, the u.s. military IS the world's legal authority.

[rebelbanshee2]

it would suck reporting a rapist and waiting for every county and state policeman in the state to show up to take him down, in fear of being unilateral

 

and you seriously have to be joking about sadam killing those people..if you arnt then that explains everything!

Edited September 28, 2004 by rebelbanshee2

[stclark04]

stclarko4,

So are you basing your opinion on who you agreed with more or who did or did not

cuss? Politics is a very passionate subject for people , this IS a banshee site where people do help each other, but this "general topic" section is here for non-banshee related discussion is it not? Im sure there are lots of people here that have argued and called each other names in this topic but continue to post helpful replies on banshee issues... Live a little man! Healthy debate is good for ya , puts hair on your toes .

If we didnt have an opinion of whats right and wrong, how boring would life be?

 

Real fu#kin boring !

im basing my opinion on the respect that is going on between the debaters. i dont care about the cussing, in some situations it makes you sound like an idiot, and in some situations it doesnt. in this situation (in my opinion) it made them sound like an idiot. im basing my opinion on the lack of respect. i think these debates are awesome, i enjoying reading them. i never said that this forum is strictly for banshees, cuz its not at all. i use this forum for anything and everything. but all of these posts between the debaters are opinions. and because of that, in my opinion, people shouldnt be getting so mad. KGL, i dont want to argue with you, this is just the way that i see it (in other words, my opinion), agree with it or dont. im not trying to get you to agree with me, but if you dont agree, stop trying to alter my perception of this, cuz its not gonna happen.

 

oh yeah... i dont need any more hair on my toes!!

[KGL]

Alter your perception ?

Damn it , I knew those Jedi mind control classes I took were a rip off !!

Although I do take it as a compliment that you think so highly of my powers...

YOU are the only one who can form your opinions , obviously youve been

paying attention in here to both sides , as you seem to give a yin and yang to

everything you describe . My point was that some people dont ride the fence like

that , it is a black and white issue , no grey. That is where the passion and the

"disrespect" may come from... both sides trying to justify their beliefs.

So if it really bothers you if I get preturbed about someones extreme moronity ,

just agree with me all the time and it will be much easier to bear

agree with me... agreeee with me... is it working?

Holy ,

Im assuming for your sake youre interested about the time in history Saddam killed

all of those Kurds? ... or dont you think he actually killed them?

And for the "rapist analogy" who do you consider the legal authority in the world?

Oh , I know this guy at CBS who might be interested in promoting your maps...

just let me know.

[stclark04]

agree with me... agreeee with me... is it working?

damn, you did get ripped off.. id be gettin my money back!

[Holyman]

No I wasn't kidding, I want you to tell me when Saddam killed those people. Was it one day or over a period of time? What were they doing when he killed them? And how did he kill them? {I'm assuming mustard gas}

The US is NOT the World's legal authority by any legal means. The US has made itself the world's police force because the leaders of the US are control freaks and many {probably most} of it's citizens are paranoid.

How would you recognize a rapist that is walking down the street with everyone else? Is he wearing a sign that says I just raped someone? Are his pants around his ankles?

[PUSH THE THROTTLE]

No I wasn't kidding, I want you to tell me when Saddam killed those people. Was it one day or over a period of time? What were they doing when he killed them? And how did he kill them? {I'm assuming mustard gas}

 

Here's the link http://www.insightmag.com/news/2003/04/01/...ns-395105.shtml

 

The US is NOT the World's legal authority by any legal means. The US has made itself the world's police force because the leaders of the US are control freaks and many {probably most} of it's citizens are paranoid.

 

When does paranoia set in? How many 757's crashed into buildings does it take to understand people really do want to kill us. Hitler felt that he was the worlds legal authority, good thing he was wrong or your parents might be a lampshade right now, and you wouldn't even be a memory.

[Brooke]

No I wasn't kidding, I want you to tell me when Saddam killed those people. Was it one day or over a period of time? What were they doing when he killed them? And how did he kill them? {I'm assuming mustard gas}

wow.

im sorry..im in shock here....wow.

not knowing about sadaam's atrocities is, amazing. ive never met anyone that didnt know.

wow

do you know, not only about the kurds, but how he treated the everyday iraqis right up until we removed him from power?

[Nightrider]

Democracy doesn't work everywhere,but as a country who believes Democracy is the only way,we feel it will work everywhere.Which is not true.Some countries need Dictators,not necessarliy the type of Dictator Saddam was,but when those dictators start to gain too much power,there progression needs to be slowed,even stopped.He just got to greedy,just like Hitler did.

 

They had the 4th largest army in the world and felt like they had a fighting chance.

In the words of Sam Kinison:"How F-ing scary are you if your number 4"

Edited September 29, 2004 by Nightrider

[Holyman]

Let me get this out in front here... I have no doubts that Saddam is/was a crazy, violent, dictator.

That being said, according to the provided link, those people were killed in 1988 during the Reagan presidency {who I did not vote for}. Did Reagan not know what happened? Then came big Bush {who I did not vote for} who also apparently didn't know what was going on. He was followed by Clinton {who I did not vote for} who also, apparently, didn't know what happened. Yet 16 years ago you knew? Why didn't you talk to the person you voted for and get them to correct the problem? Because the elected leader didn't give a crap about you, your vote {hey it got him into office what more should you expect from him} and worst of all the thousands of dead people on the other side of the world. If you didn't know about it 16 years ago when it happened when did you find out? Why did it take YOU so long to find out? Was it perhaps the elected leaders didn't want you to know? Perhaps they wanted to passify you with some other issue at the time.

Now you think lil Bush gives a crap about those people? Is he now making things right? By most accounts Bin Laden is the mastermind behind the attacks on the WTC yet he remains free. Like I said before politicians are nothing but salesmen with power. I suspect that Bush had a grudge to settle with Saddam and since the whole country {really the world} was already in high panic, let's kick some butt mode, Bush stuck Saddam on the list. And since he's easier to find, we'll start with him. The salesman just slipped the undercoating into the deal and you think that means something.

The fact is that in spite of what ever chemical weapons Saddam may or may not have, the attacks on this country were carried out with a little bit of planning and our own planes. I don't think the terrorists are any smarter than the average 16 year old, they just had a reason to act it out. Kind of like the killing at Columbine. What is this country doing to prevent another Columbine? Looking all over the country for every weird kid and them slapping him around, threatening him or locking him up? That was what they were doing in the weeks and months after the attacks. Then some sense of reasoning set in and instead of looking all over for crazy people {who are everywhere} that may have a grudge against someone, they screen the schools for weapons and monitor the extra strange ones while they're at school and people communicate when an issue seems to be developing.

On a global level people all over the world have cultural biases based on their upbringing. Those biases are natural and in almost all cases are not destructive. But people become very passionate about "their own way" of acting and because of that, everyone else needs to change. There's an old saying... When in Rome do as the Romans do. The point being that the Romans act a certain way and it is not your place as a foreigner to try to change that.

People in the middle east have a patiarchal way of ruling {which is not really so far from ideal this countries system is based on}. I will give the definition... 3. (Ethnol.) Having an organization of society and government in which the head of the family exercises authority over all its generations.

This means the man of the house is the king of his castle and he is free to make the rules of that houshold as he sees fit and the members are obligated to follow those rules or face the punishment layed out by the head of the house. Most of these rules that these patriarchs imposed were religiously based {again there is no major religion in the WORLD that promotes hatred} so there are certain rules that are usually held in common with other families. These patriarchs are highly defensive of their property {which often includes the women} and their religious beliefs. These patriarchs are also very proud. So to offend a patriarch {like any other ruler} is highly offensive and to steal is severely punishable. The families morals are also heavily defended since this is the foundation the entire community is based on. This is the way it has been for thousands of years and it works for them. There are several things that can upset this balance. Too much power in one family, moral degredation and theft of their commodities.

If you do enough research, you will no doubt find that Saddam and Bin Laden had been brought up under the "perfect storm" conditions just mentioned. In addition to that, as much as these patriarchal societies hate the violence put upon them by their own leaders, they hate even more the influence of outside nations who in principle probably lead to the downfall to begin with.

All in all the American ideal and the middle eastern ideal is not far off... no-one wants a stranger coming into your house telling you how you should act and then enforcing that. If they keep doing it, then you want to fight back and as the saying goes... all's fair in love and war. And most people don't want to be told that their drunken father is an abusive drunk. They know it, you know it, we all know it, but he's still their father.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. As it stands, the world condition is what it is. There is no going back and saying "what if..." because it obviously didn't work out that way.

[Brooke]

o darling, im so so sorry holyman. i just did not realize before that you werent aware of the goings on in the world.

have you heard of the gulf war? bush sr. went in to iraq back then to take care of business and force sadaam to give up his weapons so he couldnt carry out any more mass murders. many resolutions were set to end that war, and sadaam has violated 17 of them. that alone was reason enough to go into iraq. american men died for nothing if we would have let sadaam get away with breaking those resolutions set at the end of the first gulf war.

and hun, we did go after osama, we broke up the taliban, and osama fled into a country that had sanctions against the u.s. entering. we are still working on getting osama, and we will get him or he'll die running, one or the other. but since we freed the afgan people, ten million people have registered to vote, 40% of whom are women. they WANT to vote, and want to be free.

sadaam had the capability to manufacture WMDs, at the very least, and after 9/11 he started helping out various terrorists (like the man who was injured on the afgan killing fields and brought into baghdad for top medical treatment). sadaam was more than happy that the u.s. was attacked sucessfully. this is the man who made TWO assination attempts on bush sr. once he found a group that could be successful in hurting us, he embraced them. if we had not gone into iraq after breaking up the taliban in afganistan, iraq would have become a haven for those men, and to their great pleasure, unlike osama, sadaam already had the capabilities ready and waiting for WMDs.

and the iraqi people did not want to be run in that way, the way sadaam ran the country. every single day, sadaam and his henchmen were murdering and raping their own people for just speakin ill towards sadaam. sadaam's son, who was head of their olympic team, literally killed and tortured their olympic athletes who didnt compete up to standards...the examples go on and on...my point being, the people needed desperately to be freed from sadaam and his people. and now they will be holding free elections and able to choose their own leader.

[Nightrider]

and now they will be holding free elections and able to choose their own leader.

 

 

It will be a good start,but not the best way to solve the problems goin on over there.The problem is Bush thinks that he can change that political system overnight,which in reality will take 2 decades and 2 more presidents.The problem is the next president will not put forth the effort nor attempt to pick-up where bush left off.this will become another korea or vietnam where we spent way too much money time and most important,loss of life fighting for.

 

It will take alot more than 4 more years to change Iraqs current state of goverment and I wouldn't be surprised if the newly elected leaders are assasinated.Probably more than one of them.Some countries need to be ruled with an Iron fist.Its sad to say but its true.Too many uneducated people and religous beliefs will always plauge the way of life over there.

 

History repeats itself and this war is looking more and more like wars of the past.Bush will not be able to get it done and it won't be his fault,He's just going to run out of time.

[Holyman]

I guess since you voted you were able to sleep at night knowing that the leaders were doing all they could. But in reality we were both doing the same thing... waiting for the monkey in office to do what he said he would do.

Rape, murder, and other crimes are horrible and are not to be discounted. But rape in Iraq was a capital offense. In fact even what we here would call flirting would often times be a capital offense. Granted there is no doubt that Saddams sons and other officials did rape and murder. As it turns out, there were 247,730 sexual assaults in this country in 2002 and every 2 minutes another person is raped in THIS country and over 18,000 murders. Even with Saddams perversions, this would be impossible. Crime as a whole was punishable by death and aside from Saddams perversions of justice, crime was a minute fraction of what it is here. The reality is that Americans rape and murder Americans each day too and they aren't even the rulers. If rape and murder are what this war is about, then let's fight it here.

The killing of the Kurds was during what the CIA website calls...

Territorial disputes with Iran led to an inconclusive and costly eight-year war (1980-88).

These people were innocent but because they were in what could be called "the wrong place at the wrong time" they died. As it turns out Americans and pretty much every other nation bombs people that they are at war with and they do what is called collateral damage to "innocents" or the average guy just trying to live. What about those people? Many feel that they should be happy to die because in some way they paid the ultimate price to get rid of a tyrant leader. I suspect that if you asked them before they were killed if they would like to be blown up at random to get rid of the leader, they'd probably say "no".

And when you blow up a guys wife or kids because they happen to be coming home from school or the market when some guy is driving down the same street, you really are starting a problem. The one that loses his family may have hated the government and the guy that you were after but there was always some hope that he could stay away from being victimized by them. You just erased this guys whole family along with his hope and you made a life long enemy.

But what can you do about it? You didn't drop the bomb, you didn't target his wife and kids. You just put your ballot in the box so you could sleep knowing that the guy you elected was going to make the whole world a better place. And every day you get up, go to work and live. Unless you live in New York and work at the World Trade Center on September 11. Then you die for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. And your boyfriend or girlfriend gets mad and signs up for the military and joins the surgical strike team to get them back for taking your innocent life. Too bad there was some collateral damage when he/she got him. Well it was only a mother and her daughter coming home from the market. Probably saved them from being raped or murdered anyway. Heck they should be happy knowing that one of the bad guys was killed too.

There needs to be a way of STOPPING the violence. Life is the ultimate gift and violence never preserves life.

[Brooke]

and now they will be holding free elections and able to choose their own leader.

 

 

It will be a good start,but not the best way to solve the problems goin on over there.The problem is Bush thinks that he can change that political system overnight,which in reality will take 2 decades and 2 more presidents.The problem is the next president will not put forth the effort nor attempt to pick-up where bush left off.this will become another korea or vietnam where we spent way too much money time and most important,loss of life fighting for.

 

It will take alot more than 4 more years to change Iraqs current state of goverment and I wouldn't be surprised if the newly elected leaders are assasinated.Probably more than one of them.Some countries need to be ruled with an Iron fist.Its sad to say but its true.Too many uneducated people and religous beliefs will always plauge the way of life over there.

 

History repeats itself and this war is looking more and more like wars of the past.Bush will not be able to get it done and it won't be his fault,He's just going to run out of time.

Bush has never claimed that he will solve the problem overnight. he has said repeatedly that it will take time. and if you fear the next president wont take the time or effort to continue helping them, than vote for the person you know WILL continue the effort.

and they dont need to be ruled with an iron fist. they have been oppressed (uneducated) due to that iron fist. they have spawned religious hatred because of that iron fist. if you remove the iron fist, they can finally get the education they need to help democracy work in their country. with ignorance brings the hopelessness that spawns suicide bombers and all other forms of hate and violence. freedom for them will help heal their wounds. its not just all about politics, its about life and freedom and education and hope and power for the common man.

you know, years ago this same type of opposition was being shown against reagan when he wanted to fight communism. many people said it wasnt our duty to do that, and that it would be a fruitless effort...