Holyman Posted July 31, 2004 Report Share Posted July 31, 2004 First of all offending me is almost impossible. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and they are also entited to speak their beliefs. Speaking of ones beliefs is not ramming it down someones throat {as some have seemed to say} so saying what's on your mind is part of the joy of life that should never be denied. So speak on Now to the evo topic... To jumpstart the process to the "big bang" with planets and earth and matter and space and heat and sun and water is really getting way ahead of the beginning, but even at that the question comes up... Why is the universe so organized. The planets are in such sync that mathmaticians can make space travel possible because the planets are timed so precisely. They can tell where the planets were 2,000 years ago and 2,000 years from now. So a simple explosion cannot explain the order of the universe. In fact many evolutionists are saying that the big bang was not so much a super dense material that simply blew up but there was such a filling of the knowable universe that it was an explosion of matter in an instant. It wasn't there, then "bang" there it was. The algae turning into this that turned into that that turned into something else just doesn't work. Many things go thru a metamorphasis but they never go thru a true evolution. This is where over time the use of the word evolution has changed from it's original meaning of "this was this but now is not that at all" to "this was this and now it looks, acts or behaves differently". True evolution would be for a bird to turn into a cat or walrus or elephant or even back to algae. Evolution is coming to be known as a yellow bird turned into a brown bird. The second is simple adaptation. I heard the other day that city birds actually chirp louder than their country relatives because there is more noise in the city. Will the bird evolve a microphone and amp to help it yell over the traffic? No way. The bird is still a bird, just louder. The other thing about evolution too is that in spite of all the chaos that it claims started everything, there is a specific order everything must go in or it simply won't work. For example just sticking with the cow... imagine that everything happened in pairs so reproduction could occur and the grass and air and water and all the necessary other things to keep life going were there but the cow had not completely evolved yet. So one cow has a head growing out of it's foot, one has a fish tails where the teeth should be, one has the genitals of a sparrow etc. {which doesn't include the internal organs and necessary processes for a body to function and the inborn need to mate} and the whole world is full of "cows" and only cows in their various forms of development. You still need the 2 cows that are equally developed to "hook up" properly and produce offspring so the 2 simultaniously evolving cows would have to be in the same place and produce lots and lots and lots of offspring. This again doesn't take into account disease, accidents, preditors etc. which by the evolutionary rule would also be developing. And if the whole world was covered with cows so as to assure that there were only cows to mate with, what happened to all of the carcasses? There would have to be thousands in each of their various forms. The cow with the fish teeth couldn't eat and would die. The cow with the head on it's foot and the other deformed animals would all eventually die. To hurry up and evolve into something else would be impossible and mating to bring about offspring would be impossible. Now repeat that with all of the other species that are simultaniously evolving. The only way evolution could even come close to working is based completely on reproduction in enormous numbers. And even with that the deformaties would be so severe that the animals would certainly die from starvation, weakness or from the deformaties themselves. The sheer numbers are staggering. And because of that, even if you start with the cow in the blender, it is impossible to end up with a cow even if you are trying to put it back together. Every hair, every cell, every spot exactly where it was before you ground it up. Alot of times it is said that this happens over millions or even billions of years. This increases the odds but doesn't account for the lifespan of the animals. If a cow lived for 100 years and produced hundreds of offspring that were in various stages of evolution, the odds are that over an enormous amount of time it would be more likely that "improved" offspring would be produced. The problem is that cows don't live that long and random is just that... random. You would have to assume that the cow would continue to produce cows that trended toward being cows and not a blend of cows and crows. In short the only way to improve the odds of something happening is to increase the numbers. Either alot of cows have to produce alot of offspring or a few cows have to produce offspring over a much longer period of time. Either way, the evolutionary concept just doesn't stand up to the math. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banshee04le Posted July 31, 2004 Report Share Posted July 31, 2004 In my view, it doesn't matter. If evolution WERE true, who's to say that a higher being didn't plant the seeds with that very plan, and knowing the outcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogboystoy Posted July 31, 2004 Report Share Posted July 31, 2004 Well, I like that respone. Gives me something to think about. But this thought would just spur on the idea (for me) of "aliens" or some other being starting life on earth. I am just a little leary of believing in a mystical being, who started life on earth and is watching over us. Who can use his magical powers to heal and damn whatever he wishes. I cannot believe that there is anything in exhistence that is all Truely good. With no malice, jealousy, or any evil tendencies. Of course he must have a sense of humor, look at some of the animals we have here (platypuss). Besides I have a little negative edge towards religion. Lets say that, I truely believe in god, Why would I want to go to church and have a person, give me their interpretation of the bible? I mean you can read somehing and 20 different peolple will give a different interpretation on what something means. I would guess that people do this because they want a little comarodery, kind of like what we do here on the banshee forum for our sweet rides. But ill be damned If I am going to sing a jesus loves me song before I log in on the forum. So I would then have to read the Bible for myself,, right? Well, Jeeze who wrote the bible? a prophet right? well, didnt he interpret what god said and put it on paper? So the interpretation started from the prophet. Maybe he was wrong. Maybe God didnt mean what the prophet said. Anyway cool chatting with ya. This is just one of those never ending cyclical debates that will continue for any living exhistence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holyman Posted July 31, 2004 Report Share Posted July 31, 2004 Well, I like that respone. Gives me something to think about. But this thought would just spur on the idea (for me) of "aliens" or some other being starting life on earth. I am just a little leary of believing in a mystical being, who started life on earth and is watching over us. Who can use his magical powers to heal and damn whatever he wishes. I cannot believe that there is anything in exhistence that is all Truely good. With no malice, jealousy, or any evil tendencies. Of course he must have a sense of humor, look at some of the animals we have here (platypuss). Besides I have a little negative edge towards religion. Lets say that, I truely believe in god, Why would I want to go to church and have a person, give me their interpretation of the bible? I mean you can read somehing and 20 different peolple will give a different interpretation on what something means. I would guess that people do this because they want a little comarodery, kind of like what we do here on the banshee forum for our sweet rides. But ill be damned If I am going to sing a jesus loves me song before I log in on the forum. So I would then have to read the Bible for myself,, right? Well, Jeeze who wrote the bible? a prophet right? well, didnt he interpret what god said and put it on paper? So the interpretation started from the prophet. Maybe he was wrong. Maybe God didnt mean what the prophet said. Anyway cool chatting with ya. This is just one of those never ending cyclical debates that will continue for any living exhistence. So my question to you then is if you think that aliens may have populated the earth somehow, did they just drop people here or did they put all of the animal life on the earth? I'm not trying to back anyone into a corner. I came to religion because the other explanations didn't pan out. Yes I had a religious upbringing but each person is obligated to make their own decisions based on the knowledge they have at the time. I feel though, that to really have an opinoin, ALL other opinions need to be anylized against the thoughts I have right now. I have no attachment to ANY belief to the extent that I will continue to trust it beyond the facts. And I constantly compare what I learn with what I know and adjust as needed. So from what I'm seeing, a person who believes that Aliens MAY have populated the earth is not that different from a person who believes in God. Really it all comes down to the definitions. An alien is something that is not indigenus to earth, has powers beyond what we can fully grasp and a purpose that is not completely understood. Really how is that different from God? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justintoxicated Posted July 31, 2004 Report Share Posted July 31, 2004 Well, I like that respone. Gives me something to think about. But this thought would just spur on the idea (for me) of "aliens" or some other being starting life on earth. I am just a little leary of believing in a mystical being, who started life on earth and is watching over us. Who can use his magical powers to heal and damn whatever he wishes. I cannot believe that there is anything in exhistence that is all Truely good. With no malice, jealousy, or any evil tendencies. Of course he must have a sense of humor, look at some of the animals we have here (platypuss). Besides I have a little negative edge towards religion. Lets say that, I truely believe in god, Why would I want to go to church and have a person, give me their interpretation of the bible? I mean you can read somehing and 20 different peolple will give a different interpretation on what something means. I would guess that people do this because they want a little comarodery, kind of like what we do here on the banshee forum for our sweet rides. But ill be damned If I am going to sing a jesus loves me song before I log in on the forum. So I would then have to read the Bible for myself,, right? Well, Jeeze who wrote the bible? a prophet right? well, didnt he interpret what god said and put it on paper? So the interpretation started from the prophet. Maybe he was wrong. Maybe God didnt mean what the prophet said. Anyway cool chatting with ya. This is just one of those never ending cyclical debates that will continue for any living exhistence. So my question to you then is if you think that aliens may have populated the earth somehow, did they just drop people here or did they put all of the animal life on the earth? I'm not trying to back anyone into a corner. I came to religion because the other explanations didn't pan out. Yes I had a religious upbringing but each person is obligated to make their own decisions based on the knowledge they have at the time. I feel though, that to really have an opinoin, ALL other opinions need to be anylized against the thoughts I have right now. I have no attachment to ANY belief to the extent that I will continue to trust it beyond the facts. And I constantly compare what I learn with what I know and adjust as needed. So from what I'm seeing, a person who believes that Aliens MAY have populated the earth is not that different from a person who believes in God. Really it all comes down to the definitions. An alien is something that is not indigenus to earth, has powers beyond what we can fully grasp and a purpose that is not completely understood. Really how is that different from God? I dunno dude, theres alot of aliens here in San Diego, we just bring them back across the boarder. They had trouble building our driveway let alone creating all life Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MULLET~BOY Posted July 31, 2004 Report Share Posted July 31, 2004 i have no real fealing on the whole thing except i feal we should respect evry one for the beliefes and diffrences one day we are all going to die i guess thats the only time you are going to find out exactly how it works i find it hard to beilive i die and i end up standing in front of some big gates where there is a slightly pudgy old dude with a list of who can enter and who goes to hell but i also find it hard to beilive that when we die we are just dead and its all over i'm kinda hoping the whole renicarnation thing is true long as i dont get stuck in like as a slug or spider Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducman Posted July 31, 2004 Report Share Posted July 31, 2004 There was no light, no air, no soil, no minerals, no electricity, no heat, no cold, no nothing. The mathmatical possibility of something as insignificant as a single cell with all of it's complexity evolving would be far less than one person living to be 10,000 years old and winning every states lottery every week for 10,000 years and all of that without ever buying a single ticket. That sir is impossible. Any mathmatician will tell you that even if you do play the lottery and use the same numbers for the rest of your life the chances of you ever winning back the money you spent on the tickets is mathmatically impossible. That's rolling a few balls in a barrel and randomly picking out a few. The theory of evolution is that by randomly rolling a few balls around in a barrel you will get a brand new #### which has never existed before and a brand new **** which has never existed before and a brand new ++++ which has never existed before and when all 3 roll out, they are all different and yet work perfectly together. Well actually there was light, air, soil, minerals, electricity, and heat. It doesn't take life for these things to exist, only chemical reactions and time. Well if you want to argue that god made matter and time well I guess I'd just ask, then who made and/or existed before god. Once again we'd be going outside any possible knowledge and both be full of shit to argue one way or the other. And any mathematician will tell you as you approach infinity almost anything is possible if there is even the slightest chance. Now if you only believe the earth has been around for 6000 years and carbon 14 dating for organic matter and uranium isotope dating for rocks is a farce made up by scientists then I could easily see how life from evolution would be mathematically impossible. However, in the scientific community we know that the earth is somthing like 4 billion years old. Here's how your cow in the blender theory does work. If you were to take flower, eggs, sugar, and chocholate chips and throw them out of an airplane almost 100% of the time they would blow around and fall to the ground as a big separated mass with little trace of what you started with. Do this for a hundred lifetimes and you still get nothing. Try this for several hundred million years or maybe even a billion years and eventually the ingrediants will fall to the ground as a perfect choclate chip cookie through random occurances. A a little vortex in the air cause by rising warm air bringing the particles together, some moisture, throw in a little lightning... voila... a cookie is born. I think if you play every possible ticket in the California lottery with the same numbers for something like 100,000 years your are statistically guarenteed to win. Even the blind squirel will eventually find a nut. There are theories that life on earth has existed many times and has been wiped out by natural geological or cosmic events and has started over and comes back because earth has a chemical makeup and atmosphere that is the perfect mix for producing life. Dinosaurs sound familiar? We only know about them because they only lived as much as 150,000 years ago, but if it was longer than that then the earth would have recycled the evidence by now because of plate techtonics and submergance. In terms of your lifetime vs the earth you are just a blink of the eye. There may have already been intelligent beings on earth that lived thousands of years and already died off. Your just the latest and greatest version 2.6 Maybe that is divine? How can we tell? That is why faith is blind and searching for an intelligent answer that is complete is also fruitless in the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evil Posted July 31, 2004 Report Share Posted July 31, 2004 so who was it that invented the hooka ? was it god, jusus, adam, evolution ??? i want to thank that individual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtRider Posted July 31, 2004 Report Share Posted July 31, 2004 God exists through conscience. Simple? Thoughs who follow the laws of there heart are blessed. Those who don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banshee Bull Posted July 31, 2004 Report Share Posted July 31, 2004 I don't want to shove My God (the God I believe in)down anyones throat I have a book called the Bible that talks about the beginning of time to the end of time and pretty much how it will happen. And in this book it tells me to go out and spread the Gospel (The good news) that only through Jesus Christ (Gods Son) can anyone go to heaven (be saved) if you choose to listen well good for you and I will see you there.If you don't well then thats all I can do. It's like a stop sign someone has put that there for you to see. If you use it than all is well, but if you don't, well then there's a chance something bad will happen to you. Its all your choice and I know some of you are saying well good people get killed at stop signs huh. So maybe the other person choose not to listen. Life is all about choice's I choose to live in a manner that if I take care of other people before myself than that makes me feel good. And at the end of my life when I die and I'm wrong well then I lost out on some money and some time I must not had needed anyway and we just die. BUT WHAT IF I'M RIGHT!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broke Posted July 31, 2004 Report Share Posted July 31, 2004 "Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lepew Posted July 31, 2004 Report Share Posted July 31, 2004 Theres me and God with no F*cking middle man. Organized religions tend to be corupt in one way or another. Just remember this country was founded by religious people who fought for their freedom of religion and speech and then preserved it for us. So the God in our government is a staple, but you don't need to beleive in him. It probably wasn't our founding fathers intentions to shove god down your throat when you swear on a bible or chant "one nation under God". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenBB Posted July 31, 2004 Report Share Posted July 31, 2004 I like your chocolate chip cookie theory Ducman...factor in a trillion years or so and it'll even fall into a cold glass of milk, heh. Evil, hookas evolved from Coca-cola can pipes, and in divine terms the hookah begat Tuned Port Injection. If you really want a real mindfuck consider for a moment if the entire universe as we know it is just one grain of sand at Glamis... Dogboystoy and Holyman, really good stuff there, most beyond my comprehension but very interesting reads. On Dog's side, I think that given the almost inconceivable timespan, anything can and does happen, even life itself (as someone else mentioned, when given a near infinite amount of time, mathematics and probability go out the window). Sure you may never make a cow out of cow juice, but who's to say if you tried for a billion years you couldn't come up with an amoeba or a toaster? On Holy's side, where did the universe come from in the first place? I mean, SOMETHING happened, whether it was created in an instant or not we'll probably never know, but time and space had to come from somewhere, who's to say it wasn't by virtue of an unknown cosmic entity? Perhaps He "banged" out the universe and bailed, perhaps He checks in every million years. On a closing note, how does religion explain the dinosaurs? How does science actually determine if something is "alive" (the difference between a jar of all the chemicals that comprise a human body compared to a living one)? Not being a smartass, just curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meat Posted July 31, 2004 Report Share Posted July 31, 2004 (edited) Ducman your first post was excellent, your second post was even better. Thank you for writing that out. DirtRider, don't even waste your time writing your nonsense. You have no respect here. People who say they don Edited July 31, 2004 by Meat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Duece Posted July 31, 2004 Report Share Posted July 31, 2004 (edited) 1. Since your dead body's getting buried in the ground, im assuming your saying that your "soul" will be going to heaven. This "soul", does it float out of your...... say your ear... and into the atmosphere, where it goes to heaven ?? How does your soul find heaven, does one of god's angles taxi your soul there, there's hundreds of thousands of people dying right now this instance, are all these souls popping out of dead bodies and some going to heaven and some float around and haunt houses and others go to hell. I CAN'T BELEIVE PEOPLE BELEIVE IN THIS STUFF...... It's like listening to a 5 year old thats 100% sure Santa Clause lives. 2. Is heaven up in the clouds like the bible says ? Does heaven run into any problems with airplanes buzzin' the kingdom ? 3. I guess there's supposed to be a big gate keeper up there in heaven, whats his name..... Paul or Pete or somethin'? And he's got your whole life record somewhere on a holy DVD or something and he reviews it and either lets you in the pearly gates or he casts you down to hell. YOU HONESTLY BELEIVE THIS OR SOMETHING EVEN CLOSE TO THIS HAPPENS?? I can't beleive people can be brainwashed to beleive in this stuff. Its like a big fantasy.... and people fall for it.... all the time !! Maybe a big purple unicorn wisks you away to fluffy peanut butter land, and god is a walrus named Tim. Sounds far fetched huh ? 4. Tell me more about Hell. Since thats where i'll prolly be going. Will I need to take a cooler of soda's with me, I hear it gets pretty hot there in the summer. So anyways, from what I hear about hell is its hot and your tortured for eternity. Don't you think that after about 39,000 years of torture, I'd be pretty used to the torture and it wouldnt be torture anymore, it would be more like a job without any paycheck. Where exactly is Hell ? Somewhere deep within the earth.... I CANT BELEIVE PEOPLE CAN BELIVE THIS STUFF. 5. You say that you 'will see you there' in heaven. Does our magical soul take the form of our physical body and do we need clothes on ?? 6. Do animals go to heaven ?? What about those cute monkeys who rollerskate and smoke cigars(Simpsons quote)?? 7. What does everyone do up there in heaven to pass time... I mean eterinity is a pretty long time. Do are souls get a house assigned to us, or a condo maybe? Can we argue up there in heaven, do we have free will ?? I CAN'T BELEIVE PEOPLE BELEIVE IN A HEAVEN. 8. What about the so called "cavemen", the ones that drew antelope pictures in the caves 10,000 years ago. Are they up there in the clouds too, and do you think they learned to speak english by now ? 9. How many people do you think died between the first cavemen and today ? How are they fitting everyone in up there in heaven ? Does everyone get a cloud of thier own ? Its gotta be pretty crowded up there by now. 10. How does Santa's reindeer get off the ground and fly around the world ? Oops, wrong topic, forget this question. Look, im not trying to be a dick, and im trying to make anyone look stupid. The reason I asked my 10 crazy questions, that are "over the top" silly, is because when your standing in my shoes and looking at religon this is what I see. I see alot of fantasy. #1 gods spose to remeber you if you been cool and bring ya back #2 the lords prayer "my will be done on earth as it is in heaven, so earth is gonna be heaven, as it started out as, until man met his first woman, and she ruined everything, as usual..... #3 no gate keeper, refer to answer #1 #4 jesus went to hell for three days, its your grave in the old testamant #5 no, you can be naked but no ne has sex so it wont do ya no good #6 animals have souls, and were created by god, so maybe you'll see your dog there #7 who knows jesus is the only one to make the round trip #8 yes god will remember babies too, and retards and the like #9 upwards to a few hundred billion #10 Santa is a fable, who people have written books about, kinda like they have god, but both have the same beard, only Santa brings you stuff now, god makes ya wait till yer dead to reward you Edited July 31, 2004 by Blue Duece Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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