Tors Doohicky

[BenBB]

Meat, I agree with everyting JJ said except the key switch; it HAS to be grounded as you did for it to run (Red/black from CDI must go to a good ground). The handlebar kill switch is just the opposite; it HAS to NOT be grounded to run (black/white from CDI must not touch ground).

 

I also agree with Blacksmith, if you've got a real hot spark (nice cherry coil & CDI), it will try to spark with the switches off. Mine does this.

 

You really want this bitch to run? Of course you do. Time for a crash course. Here's what you're gonna need:

 

1. A continuity tester; most decent digital volt/ohm meters will have a setting to test continuity, the better ones will emit a tone or squeak when you touch the two test leads together, or when you put the leads on each end of an unbroken wire (you want one with good pointy leads too). You can find these at like Autozone for $20 or so.

 

2. An ohmmeter; again, hopefully the same one as above, capable of reading resistance through a wire (which is measured in Ohms, the symbol is Omega).

 

3. Feeler gauges, well you already got that covered. The matchbook cover method will get you close enough to run.

 

4. I'm sure you got the rest of the normal tools so I won't go there.

 

5. PATIENCE. Maybe 75% of electrical problems are a bitch because they are intermittant; don't give up. Drag the harness in the house, get a box fan for the garage, take a break when you get pissed, whatever. Just take your time and you'll figure it out.

 

OK since you got the harness apart, start with checking continuity through all the wires. Take the 4-wire plug for the stator, find one wire color (like red/white), and then find the same color wire at the CDI connector. Carefully put the test leads on each of the terminals inside the connector and listen for the tester to "beep". If you're not getting any beep first make sure you got the meter set to check continuity and have the leads plugged into the right place on the meter, and you should get a "beep" when you touch the two test leads together.

 

Now check for continuity through all the wires that matter; from the stator (red/white, green/white, red, and green) to the CDI (same colors), from the CDI (black, orange) to the coil, from the CDI (red/black, black) to the key switch, from the CDI (black/white, black) to the handlebar kill switch, and from the CDI (black) to the eyelet ground where the voltage regulator mounts.

 

Don't shove the test leads into the connectors too hard as you can bend the terminals where they won't make contact. It's best if you can set the meter down and hold a test lead in each hand, just making contact against the terminal you're testing.

 

Check that ground eyelet, it needs to have a clean contact to the frame (the voltage regulator itself doesn't matter as it's part of the lighting system).

 

If you find a wire that doesn't have continuity, trace it for cuts or any indications it could be broken. Check the terminal at each end and make sure it's crimped on tight. If there's no physical indication of it being broken and you still get no continuity, trust the meter and replace the wire (more on that later). IF you have continuity in all the places that matter, tape up the harness and move on, that is probably not the problem (this is a good place to just cut off all the TORS connectors, tape the end of the wire so it's not exposed, and then tape 'em all inside the harness).

 

Next, double check the stator & pickup coil resistance. At the stator 4-wire connector, set the meter to read Ohms, and you should have:

Charging coil (red to green wire) 13.7-20.5 Ohms

Pick up coil (white/red to white/green wire) 94-140 Ohms

 

You should be well within those limits with a new stator, but what you really don't want to see here is "infinite ohms" which means there's a break in the wire somewhere. While you're there, just for grins test the ground; set the meter to continuity again and see if it "beeps" going from the single black wire from the stator to one of the bolts on the motor. It should.

 

You got the pickup coil gap set so that is OK, make sure the little phillips screws are tight.

 

Visually inspect the flywheel. You didn't drop it did you? The nut is tight right? If it's loose make sure the little woodruff key didn't fall out or shear off. Check the little magnets on the flywheel with somethin' metal and see if they are still magnetic. Use a wire brush and take off any surface rust.

 

Take a look at the coil and the spark plug leads. Just make sure the leads are attached to the coil and it's not like broken in half. You can test the coil with the ohmmeter but I don't have the specs in front of me (check the Clymer). I had a local mom & pop bike shop bench test my coil fer free so you could do that to get out of the garage.

 

Pretty much all that's left is hooking up all the connectors. Remember what I was sayin' earlier about the terminals, some of them are bent back on themselves to provide tension against the other terminal (this is almost impossible to describe so bear with me), if you shove the test lead in there too hard it can bend it too much and it won't make a good connection. Don't worry, you can remove the little terminals from the connectors and make 'em right. On the inside of the connector, there is a small plastic "tang" that keeps the terminal from coming out the back side of the connector. Use a small pick to push that plastic tang and you can pull the terminal right out.

 

Speaking of connectors, get some dielectric grease and put a nice bead in each of the connectors. If water is your culprit the grease should help.

 

OK so if you haven't found any problems yet, start hooking things back together. For now, just plug in the stator, the CDI, make sure the ground eyelet is tight at the voltage regulator, hook up the coil leads, and nothing else. If the key switch wires are still connected (black/red to black) leave them that way. Don't even hook up anything else (you won't have a kill switch so you'll hafta pull the orange lead off the coil to kill it). Throw fresh plugs in there. Test for spark and/or see if it runs. Does it?

 

If so, plug in the rest of the connecters and check it again. If not, it could be the CDI, since that's all that's left. Do you have your old CDI or can you borrow a buddies (any year) CDI? If you can get ahold of one that works, even if the connectors aren't the same you can give it a try, by removing the terminals (make sure to write down what color wire went where!!) from one style connector and putting them in the other. GOOD LUCK and let us know what it's doing...

Edited May 25, 2004 by BenBB

[ledofthezep]

Right on BenBB , that's a 'sticky' reply right there for troubleshooting electrics.

[sredish]

fantastico.

[J..J.]

Excellent as usual Ben!!!

 

Meat, I agree with everyting JJ said except the key switch; it HAS to be grounded as you did for it to run (Red/black from CDI must go to a good ground). The handlebar kill switch is just the opposite; it HAS to NOT be grounded to run (black/white from CDI must not touch ground).

 

Ben is right, hope I didn't lead you further astray Meat. Apologies if I did.

 

Any updates?

[Blacksmith]

Good post Ben, looks like you have a heck of a start on that Elec FAQ we were going to write.

 

Meat, one thing to keep in mind, when you get right down to it, you only need 5 wires plus a ground circut to make a Shee run. The rest of the wires are only there to shut it off or to power and control the lights. CDI to stator (4) and CDI to coil (1) plus a ground from the CDI to the Stator to the Coil. You might consider taking the plugins off of the CDI, Stator, and Coil and creating a temporary harness from bell wire.

 

Good Luck.

[Meat]

Banshee for sale. First $200 bucks takes it.

[Meat]

Now check for continuity through all the wires that matter; from the stator (red/white, green/white, red, and green) to the CDI (same colors), from the CDI (black, orange) to the coil, from the CDI (red/black, black) to the key switch, from the CDI (black/white, black) to the handlebar kill switch, and from the CDI (black) to the eyelet ground where the voltage regulator mounts.

 

this is a good reply and I appreciate it, but it makes absolutly no sense to me, its like reading japanese.

 

check continutity..... from the stator (red/white, green/white, red, and green) to the CDI (same colors) How do I test this, I got a electrical mutlimeter thing with a black probe and red probe, you say check the continutity..... but im lookin at the wires you say to test and the probes on the tester and I dont know if Im supposed to put the red probe on the red\white wire and the black probe on the green wire, or the red probe on the green wire and black probe on the ground wire or the red probe on the red wire and black probe on the red\white wire or black probe on the red\white wire on the stator and red probe on the red\white wire at the cdi or..... four thousand other combinations. Plus..... im I supposed to be kick starting the bike when testing these wires, cause I cant get any readings or beeping, I cant hold the probes on the connectors and kick start it at the same time, Iv tried about every possible combo with this multimeter and It makes no sense to me.

 

You also say to test the cdi, handlebar kill and cdi the same way, but I need to be taught how to test. I couldnt make heads or tails out your earlier how to test description.

 

why did the bike run 100% one minute and now I have nothing. Im betting one of my main parts is toast. Either the cdi, the coil or the stator died.... somehow. I didnt touch anything, it ran great one minute, dead the next.

 

I really dont know what else to do but start all over with new electronics. NYUK do you still have that electrical system layin around ???

Edited May 28, 2004 by Meat

[Blacksmith]

Meat,

A quick lesson in testing for continuity.

The first thing you need to do is set your meter to test for continuity. If you do not have the paper work that tells you how to do this, then simply try each setting on the meter until you can touch the two probes together and have the meter peg out (if it is analog) or change reading from infinity to zero (if it is digital).

The next thing is to understand what we are testing for. We want to see if a wire is able to carry current from one end to the other without resistance. This ability is called continuity.

So what we want to do is check to ensure that each of the 4 wires that run from the stator to the cdi can carry current ie.. have continuity. Once the meter is set properly place one probe on one end of a wire color and the other probe on the other end of that same wire. Your meter should now give you the same reading as it does when you touch the probes together.

You can use the same setting on your meter to check the resistance of the stator and the coil. With nothing more than a good meter set properly you can check every major elec component on a banshee except the CDI.

 

If you need more help email me at blacksmith@direcway.com and I will get you my phone number and we can talk.

[BenBB]

Ahhh you're still with us Meat!! Thanks for elaborating Blacksmith, I still haven't had much time to do the FAQ but I have a note to get with you on it (I know you have a much better handle on things of an electrical nature than I do, so I WILL need your help).

 

OK sorry Meat! I took some things for granted, wasn't tryin' to confuse you (or anyone else for that matter). Lemme back up a little.

 

First off: you DO NOT need the motor running to do ANY of these tests. They will all be done with the motor off, and most can be done with the parts not even installed.

 

Second: there's two primary tests here, continuity and resistance. Blacksmith did a good job describing continuity but the real basic meaning is to check to see if a wire isn't broken (if it has continuity that means electricity CAN flow through the wire, if it has no continuity that means electricity CANNOT flow through the wire, because it's broken somewhere). Resistance checks HOW MUCH electricity can flow through it (in this case there's two different wires with something between them, like the pickup coil; if the coil is busted in half electricity can't flow through it from one wire color to the other).

 

Here's a link on how to use a multimeter you might check out when you got time :Multitester how-to

 

Third: it don't matter which lead you use. For continuity you're gonna put one lead on each end of the wire at the connectors and see if it's broke somewhere in the sphagetti mess in between (since even if you tore the wiring harness apart the wire could have a break INSIDE the insulation and might never be visible). Same goes for resistance, it don't matter which lead is on which end because you're just checking how much electricity can flow between two different wires. Without electricity going through it, in our case it can go either direction so lead color don't matter.

 

OK that said, I like to use a meter that beeps at ya to check continuity. Yes you can just set it to read Ohms (resistance) and look at the numbers, but the beeping kind is alot easier even if you hafta turn the stereo down. When you touch the two leads together, it beeps, telling you that there IS continuity. Same goes for a brand new peice of wire (or a paperclip or whatever metal); hold one end to one lead and the other end to the other lead and it'll beep, telling you electricity can flow through it (touch one lead to each end of a 2x4 and you won't get a beep because electricity can't flow through it...well unless it's soaking wet or wrapped with aluminum foil but you get the idea). If you HAVE to use resistance to check for continuity, the meter should read "--" or NO continuity (infinite resistance=no electricity can flow) when the leads aren't touching, and a very small number when you touch them together (telling you that there is little or no resistance to electricity flowing between the leads).

 

If you're still with me after all that shit let me try to add some confusion. 12V DC systems like the Banshee, and automotive or car audio systems, are pretty simple. The flywheel spins around the stator producing electricity (an alternator does the same thing, and yes I know both are AC but it's easier for me to compare it this way). The motor spinning flywheel around the stator converts motion or kinetic energy into electrical energy or "power", and the stator wires send power to the CDI. The pickup coil senses when the tits on the flywheel pass, and sends a signal to the CDI. The CDI then takes the power from the stator, and when it gets the signal from the pickup coil, the CDI sends a power signal to the coil. The coil steps up the small voltage signal from the CDI and fires the spark plugs. The spark is created when the high voltage jumps the spark plug gap to the ground strap. In this type of system, electricity flows from positive to negative, like a pipe full of water it only goes in one direction, and it WANTS to get to a ground. That's why a ground is critical because if the elecricity can't get to ground it won't do anything as it has nowhere to go (picture a waterwheel on a river; as long as the water flows the wheel will turn but if you dam up the water it can't keep going so makes a lake and the wheel don't turn; same for this type of system, if the electricity can't flow from the positive [charge from the stator] to a negative [ground], it won't spark along the way).

 

Soooo, for the system to work you gotta have a spinning flywheel to 1) get the stator to produce power and 2) tell the pickup coil where the pistons are at. You gotta have an intact stator to convert the spinning flywheel energy into electricity. You gotta have a pickup coil to tell the CDI when to fire (the CDI can advance or retard the timing, or when the coil fires, depending on RPM). You gotta have the CDI to take the power from the stator and signal from the pickup coil, and tell the coil when to fire. You gotta have a coil to step up the small voltage to a higher voltage to make the spark jump the gap on the spark plug. Finally, you gotta have INTACT and not broken wires between all these things and ultimately you gotta have a ground to complete the path of the electricity.

 

Sorry for if there's any confusion, I'm gonna post this now so you can start on it and re-read it to see if I fucked anything up, these assholes at work keep thinking I don't have better things to do than f*ck with their shit...obviously getting Meat's Banshee sparking is a priority here...

[BenBB]

OK I didn't answer a couple of yer questions.

 

1. To check continuity, we're just gonna use the tester to make sure the wire isn't broken somewhere. So unplug the 4-wire connector at the stator and the CDI, and on the INSIDE of the connectors, touch one test lead (black or red, doesn't matter) to the terminal attached to ONE color wire at the stator side (let's say red/white), and with your other hand touch the other test lead to the SAME color (red/white) wire at the CDI connector. If your meter beeps to indicate continuity, and beeps at you, you know that electricity can flow through THAT red/white wire, and you can eliminate that wire from being a problem. Then do the same thing for the other three wires in that connector, and if it beeps on every wire you know you got continuity between the stator and CDI, and a cut wire between those two is NOT the problem. Once you've checked those 4 wires check both ends of the orange wire at the CDI and at the coil and make sure there IS continuity. To test the key circuit, put one test lead on the black/red terminal at the CDI connector, and the other test lead on the ground wire eyelet terminal that bolts to the frame; it SHOULD have continuity. To test the kill switch circuit, put one test lead on the black/white terminal at the CDI connector, and the other test lead on the ground wire eyelet terminal that bolts to the frame; it SHOULD NOT have continuity.

 

2. If you missed it above, ALL these tests are done without the motor running or trying to kick it over, the parts don't even need to be installed to test for continuity or resistance.

 

3. When it ran fine and died, yes chances are one of the big things went out, BUT like everything else if something little happened it could do the same thing (like if the ground wire broke). When my CDI went out I was ridin' fine and it quit like someone hit the kill switch, it never fired again. When my stator went out it started to miss and within 20 seconds it died and never fired again (that one I could see when I tore it apart; one of the copper wires that makes the windings had broken at the solder joint). Another time was similar to the stator failure, and only turned out to be the orange wire terminal on the coil had fallen off the coil, a simple matter of crimping the female spade terminal some so it fit on the coil terminal tighter.

 

Since you got a brand new stator and wiring harness, the most likely culprit would be the CDI. The coil is a maybe but they will sometimes give you a high-speed miss as a symptom before they fail; CDI's usually quit without any warning. But you don't wanna shell out another hundo for another CDI if the prob is just a broken wire...

 

4. To test the stator and eliminate it as a potential failure, you gotta unplug the 4-wire connector at the stator, set the meter to "Ohms", then touch one test lead (let's say red) to the terminal on the red/white wire, and touch the other black test lead to the terminal on the green/white wire. The meter should read like 120 Ohms, or somewhere between 94 and 140. Then move the red test lead to the terminal on the red wire, and the black test lead to the terminal on the green wire; the meter should say 15 Ohms, or somewhere between 13.7 and 20.5. Some meters have different ranges so you might have to switch it to 10Ohms or 100Ohms between tests.

 

Clear as mud? Tell me what doesn't make sense...

[Nighty]

Wow

 

I vote BenBB member of the MONTH!

 

Great stuff here good for printing!

 

keep calm meat. you will figure it out.

[J..J.]

Yeah, Ben's da man.

I still have print outs of posts by Ben and Wheatchex from years ago.

[Meat]

Ok things are much clearer now. I got a bunch of info written down and im going out to fiddle with it now. my tester doesnt have a continuity setting and its a digital one.... craftsman brand, so I'll set it to "Ohms" and when Im testing the wires for continuniutitntytytyttyy... it should zero out. Got it. And Im sure I understand the stator testing now too. I gotta thank you guys quickly cause I got a Banshee to fix right now. thanks guys..... this info is a valuable lesson I'll never forget. Electricity is just something Iv never took any interest in and I guess Its about time I learned the basics.

 

edit, just got home, 5am. im beat.

Edited May 29, 2004 by Meat

[Meat]

got a mint condition stock handlebar on\off \ headlight swich a few days ago. Bolted the switch to the handlebars and plugged it into the harness. Then I started organizing my wiring harness birds nest. Kicked it over..... and now I have tons of spark. Im gaurenteein' its gonna fire right up. All I did was add the handlebar switch and organize up the wires. Thats all I did. And now she's sparkin' good again.

 

So Im pretty happy its working again. So I have to organize up this wiring harness now, I have it all ripped apart and im going to start removing unnecessary plugs. I cut the three wires leading to the TORS box connector, I followed the wires down to where they spliced into the harness and snipped em off. Retested the spark with the TORS connector removed and I still have tons O' spark. So there's one connector gone.

 

I have four more connectors that are useless and I'd like to cut out. Can I safely remove all four of these connectors ??? All four remaining connectors are identical except two of em are white and two of em are a greyish color. Two of em go to the TORS on top of the carbs, im not sure what the other two connectors are for, I assume one might be a connector for a lead that runs to the thumb thottle. Can I snip these connectors off ?? I'll be removing them one by one tomorrow, testing for spark evertime I remove a connector.

 

Im stoked guys, I really don't understand why adding the handlebar on\off switch brought back my spark, but on the other hand I really don't care.... just as long as its running.

 

Tomorrow, I'll simplify the harness and wire tie everything back in place, then I'll test ride it and we'll see how it goes from there.

 

[J..J.]

Well done Meat! Just in time too...

 

As for cutting the connectors, If it were me, I would just leave "good enough" alone...

If you cut them one by one like you said and test every time you should be ok.