Suspension guide

[tfaith08]

Been getting questions about widening kits. Not many people know the answers behind why they’re bad, so here we go.

Forewarning: I’m intoxicated

The biggest geometric reason is bump steer (which skyrockets with a widening kit). The very second one is roll center dynamics.

To find roll center, draw a line through your ball joint on the top a-arm and the bolt at the chassis. Do the same for the bottom. Where they intersect is your instantaneous center (IC). Now draw a line from your IC to your contact patch on your tire. Now do this for both sides. Where those last lines (yellow below) intersect is your roll center (green below).

*note, I drew a blue line below just because I didn’t have the patience to line up and draw 3 more lines on my phone. It should be mirrored.*

The roll center is the point around which the entire quad wants to rotate. You want your roll center as close as humanly possible to your center of gravity, but this can’t happen very easily for quads.



You may be able to see that as you compress the suspension, the IC lowers as the tire goes up. If you don’t fully grasp that sentence, you should fully process it before you move forward.

Since the IC lowers with suspension bump, so too does the line between the IC and contact patch change. With that, so does the intersection between the left and right sides.

Basically, as the quad travels across rough terrain, the movement of the suspension changes the point around which the quad wants to roll. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse depending on the roll center’s relationship to the center of mass.

Longer arms make the roll center movement more subtle and therefore more predictable.

Tire selection matters too. As long as ride height is maintained, taller tires will result in a lower roll center and smaller tires a higher roll center. DO NOT CONFUSE ROLL CENTER HEIGHT WITH HEIGHT OF CG. You want your roll center aligned with your center of gravity if ever possible. If your roll center is below your CG, you will roll to your right in a left hand curve. If your roll center is ABOVE your CG, you will roll left in a left hand curve.

Caster and KPI/SAI (same shit really) play into this as well. In a left hand curve, the inside tire will push into the ground more because of the jacking effect (explained in a few above comments). This also means that your relationship between the IC and contact patch have changed because while the tire pushed down, it did so from turning and had nothing to do with the arm positions. So in a left hand curve, your roll center will push down and right just a little bit, helping the quad want to pull to the left a little more than it wanted to.

What does all this mean for you?

Lowering your quad will move the roll center and CG farther apart, causing more roll. This is mitigated by more evenly distributed tire loading under cornering forces.

Installing taller tires and re-adjusting ride height to suit will make it want to roll more, not only from the side buckling of the tires but also the widening of RC and CG.

Wider arms are always better with roll center. Period.

More offset offers better RC/CG distance, but with anything non-power steering, always (and by always, I mean 100% of the time) prioritize scrub radius over roll center.

Remember, this thread is specifically meant to help everyone. If you have a question or need a better definition or further explanation, comment or sign up and ask. Otherwise, I’m just shooting in the dark on what people need to know.


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[Metal_man_Rob]

I am 100% noob on suspension... well, on a lot, actually, but this includes suspension...

 

Just bought American Star +2+1 a arms. My stockers are shot and the best I could do, budget-wise, was the arms I got.

I am almost positive I have a +6 axle, with stock swing arm and rear shock. The width is a total of 49.5" in the rear. So far it works well. 

I won't be building to race but definitely want to have a better experience, recreationally. It's already fun and I don't mind the fight but less fight, more predictable is where I want to be.

 

I am confused a little on the positioning of the 2x4s for my eye to eye measurments and travel. I'm not very bright but i am totally not picturing the scenario described for measuring.

I was just going to buy some used 450 shocks until I read this thread so.... definitely don't want to be 300 miles from home, an hour out on a trail with some clapped sh^t.

I am pretty much at the end of my budget and can't spend $1200 on front shocks. I understand we get what we pay for so that's where I am at.

Not racing, love gnarly, ratchet ass trails and need shocks that I can work with with the A arms I got. I can afford to buy some and adjust them where they are adjustable but not send them to someone to have them reworked, etc.

 

Do I have options here?

 

[tfaith08]

I am 100% noob on suspension... well, on a lot, actually, but this includes suspension...
 
Just bought American Star +2+1 a arms. My stockers are shot and the best I could do, budget-wise, was the arms I got.
I am almost positive I have a +6 axle, with stock swing arm and rear shock. The width is a total of 49.5" in the rear. So far it works well. 
I won't be building to race but definitely want to have a better experience, recreationally. It's already fun and I don't mind the fight but less fight, more predictable is where I want to be.
 
I am confused a little on the positioning of the 2x4s for my eye to eye measurments and travel. I'm not very bright but i am totally not picturing the scenario described for measuring.
I was just going to buy some used 450 shocks until I read this thread so.... definitely don't want to be 300 miles from home, an hour out on a trail with some clapped sh^t.
I am pretty much at the end of my budget and can't spend $1200 on front shocks. I understand we get what we pay for so that's where I am at.
Not racing, love gnarly, ratchet ass trails and need shocks that I can work with with the A arms I got. I can afford to buy some and adjust them where they are adjustable but not send them to someone to have them reworked, etc.
 
Do I have options here?
 

You’ve probably found a solution by now. Life shit happened and I stepped away from the off-road crowd for a while. Getting back to it now.

I’m mainly coming back to answer more reoccurring questions that I keep getting so that I can link this thread with a good consolidated source of answers.

As for your question...

Take the shocks off.

Air the tires up to the correct pressure.

Lay the frame rails down on 2x4s. One under the frame rails at the foot pegs, one all the way forward just before the frame rakes up just behind the lower arm mount. The reason you do this is because that’s about how much room you’ll have at full compression. The tires compressing will take up the last little bit.

Measure from the center of the upper shock mount hole to the center of the a-arm shock mount hole (or top of hole to top of hole OR bottom of hole to bottom of hole). This is your compressed length measurement.

Lift the quad up off the ground and measure again. This will give you extended length.

If you try to visualize what happens with larger tires, the shock length gets shorter because the arms have to go higher in relation to the rest of the chassis.


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[Metal_man_Rob]

You’ve probably found a solution by now. Life shit happened and I stepped away from the off-road crowd for a while. Getting back to it now.

I’m mainly coming back to answer more reoccurring questions that I keep getting so that I can link this thread with a good consolidated source of answers.

As for your question...

Take the shocks off.

Air the tires up to the correct pressure.

Lay the frame rails down on 2x4s. One under the frame rails at the foot pegs, one all the way forward just before the frame rakes up just behind the lower arm mount. The reason you do this is because that’s about how much room you’ll have at full compression. The tires compressing will take up the last little bit.

Measure from the center of the upper shock mount hole to the center of the a-arm shock mount hole (or top of hole to top of hole OR bottom of hole to bottom of hole). This is your compressed length measurement.

Lift the quad up off the ground and measure again. This will give you extended length.

If you try to visualize what happens with larger tires, the shock length gets shorter because the arms have to go higher in relation to the rest of the chassis.


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I appreciate it. I ended up going with the description above and was able to give Ella all of the info including leverage ratio. I went with the stage 2 shocks since I am really the only one who rides it and the only place I ride is crazy, muddy mountain trails.
I use 23 fronts and 22 rear tires and with my rebuilt stock rear, Ella fronts with +2+1 stock travel arms I am loving it.
I do plan on upgrading the steering stem and going with some better bars. Thought about flex bars.
The quad makes it through and over everything, handles very predictably and I am very happy with the front end and this post helped a ton!
I dropped the front sprocket to 13t to compensate for the larger tires. Have a roundhouse stock length swing arm now with a +4 axle. I was worried the maneuverability would go south but it actually become much more predictable.
Still haven’t bottomed out the suspension yet and have gone off some pretty intense ledges.


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[tfaith08]

Additional notes:

A lot of my approach and opinions have changed since I started doing my own chassis and suspension fabrication. My main approach is still the same but some specifics are different.


Every measurement should be taken at ride height (unless specified otherwise) and tires inflated to whatever you plan on running.

Caster should be measured at ride height. There are very few hard rules of suspension, but this is one: caster should NEVER EVER EVER go negative under full dive. Completely compress the front end and check caster. It should be 1-2 degrees (2-3 if you’re an unskilled rider; be honest with yourself here).

Caster is often cited as a means of achieving stability but really, every suspension adjustment listed by major manufacturers is listed as a stability adjustment so I guess I’ll have to break it down.

Caster’s main job is to achieve a virtual pivot point ahead of the tire for the tire to trail behind. To see this, draw a line through the ball joints to the ground. The distance from this point on the ground straight back to the center of the contact patch is called trail. The more trail you have, the more the weight of the quad returns the steering to zero (center). This is because turning makes the tire push down, which means the quad rises. Gravity takes over and the quad falls back to its lowest point. The trail length dictates the effectiveness of caster.

More caster makes the quad harder to steer because steering with caster physically raises the quad itself. Aka, turning = lifting the quad. It doesn’t turn faster, it doesn’t make it more nimble, none of that shit. It just adds resistance to turning.

TT setups don’t have much suspension and therefore don’t require much caster.

Desert setups have a ton of travel and bigger tires and are therefore prone to being in a more extreme dive.

Lower tire pressures require more caster. As a tire flattens on impact, it’s contact patch is pushed in effectively making the tire smaller for all intents and purposes. As the diameter decreases, the trail length becomes shorter. A better idea is to take the pressure out of the tires until they’re completely flat and take the same measurements. You’ll see that caster has to be increased to get the proper trail length.

Examples: 23” tire at 5psi and 12” of travel at 8” front ride height (damn near a trophy quad) will need 8-9 degrees of caster for super rough terrain and hard whoops). Dropping ride height to 7” will need 7-8. Higher tire pressures can drop another degree as well.

20” tire at 8psi and 10” of wheel travel at 7” front ride height (MX setup) will need roughly 4-6 depending on the condition of the whoops pack.

20” tire at 10psi and 7” wheel travel at 6” front ride height (TT) will need around 2-4 degrees depending on how much front grip you have (will make you dive harder under braking).



Camber isn’t tricky. Simulate a 3/4 front dive and turn the tires to full lock. The tire shouldn’t be vertical. It should still have some negative camber. This is another fundamental rule that shall not be violated. More caster will require less camber. Play around with it and see. It’s hard to give a visual intuition here.

Tires have a natural tendency to not sit as flat on the ground as you’d suspect. With weight, they deflect. Camber is there to make the deflected tire give a good contact patch. A vertical tire will have the tire pushing down more on its outside portion which will make the tire roll in on a hard corner. The only thing keeping the tire under its optimal dimension at this point is the strength of the rubber. This severely cuts cornering speed because the center of the contact patch moves inward. Slip angle (the angle between the overall direction of the tire and the direction of the distorted contact patch due to stress) is also dramatically affected.

Camber has a minimum amount. Each tire, each setup, each condition, and pressure setting will require different camber settings, but the hard rule of thumb here is that in a hard dive at full lock, the tire should still have a touch of camber in relation to the ground. For higher pressure, 3/32” is where I go. For lower pressure, 5/32”. For larger tires, add 1/32”.

Excessive camber can cut braking speeds but I firmly state that 95% of all riders brake at roughly half of the peak braking capability of the quad, so don’t think you need to find some Goldilocks zone for camber. Go back to the hard rule of never allowing positive camber at any point, ever.

Higher berms can require more camber but only if you’re half on the berm and half off. Even then, add 1/16”.

Toe is pretty simple here. Too much can make it steer with less precision. Too little is rarely a problem. I personally shoot for 1/8” unless I’m doing something where I’ll be running 70mph or more. Even then, it’s a 50/50 I don’t touch it.

For technical trails and up to 30-40mph stuff, I’m half prone to toe it straight or even just barely toed out. It gets twitchy but that matches the way I ride.

A huge misunderstanding here is how toe is measured. I personally measure perpendicular from the caster angle to a common point on the chassis. Honestly, doing it at 3 o’clock vs perpendicular to the caster angle is worth a few thousandths. Tire wear, a shitty tape measure, not getting correct ride height, and a poor measurement by the person measuring it are worth more than how is commonly measured vs how I measure, so it isn’t THAT critical. My experience in fields requiring extremely precise measurement mean that I have a slight obsession with accuracy and I also understand that a .010” error here can cause a 1/2” error down the road.

Either way, measuring from one tire to the chassis is less than measuring from 3 on one tire to 3 on the other tire, then subtracting the measurement from 9 on one tire to 9 on another. By less, I mean it’s 1/4 the difference. So my 1/16” setting is the equivalent to 1/4” for others. The number doesn’t mean shit, the result is what matters. The measurement is just a means to the result. Also, make sure you set the handlebars straight and FIX THEM IN PLACE for all steering and suspension adjustments. Ratchet straps are a good idea.

People will often say toe is good and equal when it steers straight, but caster can have the same result. Perfect toe and imperfect caster mimic one another in the straight line look ma no hands test. So does tire pressure, unequal preload, and a bent frame.

One thing I do with pipefitting and chassis engineering is how I annotate accurate measurements. Make a good measurement, write it down. Check it until you’re absolutely certain, then go put a check by your measurement. Never put a check by a written measurement that you wouldn’t put your reputation on. That check is your way to not worry.


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[tfaith08]

I’ll make a post for every new question that pops up.

Full flight is shit. Alba is diarrhea shit. eBay suspension anything is a step below alba.

Fireball, LSR, Roll, Laeger’s are top notch.

The reasons for this are simple in some cases and in some cases not.

Most arms are made of 4130. 4130 is the go to choice for high grade steel for suspension components in race quads. It differs from regular steel in that it contains around 1% chromium and 0.1% molybdenum and is considered a low-carbon alloy. That tiny little bit of chromium and molybdenum is worth another 30-35% strength over typical grades of steel, as well as good durability and flexibility. It welds great too. It does need to be post treated after welding for good strength, but not doing so is fine as long as you use a thick enough wall thickness to not require it. Basically, post treat means you can get away with a thinner wall and save weight.

Stainless arms as seen on eBay are NOT a good option. Some grades of stainless (Reynolds 953 is stainless and is my all time favorite material for critical structures but it is difficult to weld and insanely expensive and is superior to even titanium in every way) are fine, but the only material that is cheap enough to make arms for THAT price is 304 at best, which is already more difficult to weld and isn’t strong at all. Stainless arms are extremely unsafe.

Not all 4130 is the same. American and German are the top choices. Some Chinese steel marketed as 4130 is no different than regular steel. Don’t trust it. But... how else can you make arms for as cheap as alba and full flight?


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[Metal_man_Rob]

Additional notes:

A lot of my approach and opinions have changed since I started doing my own chassis and suspension fabrication. My main approach is still the same but some specifics are different.


Every measurement should be taken at ride height (unless specified otherwise) and tires inflated to whatever you plan on running.

Caster should be measured at ride height. There are very few hard rules of suspension, but this is one: caster should NEVER EVER EVER go negative under full dive. Completely compress the front end and check caster. It should be 1-2 degrees (2-3 if you’re an unskilled rider; be honest with yourself here).

Caster is often cited as a means of achieving stability but really, every suspension adjustment listed by major manufacturers is listed as a stability adjustment so I guess I’ll have to break it down.

Caster’s main job is to achieve a virtual pivot point ahead of the tire for the tire to trail behind. To see this, draw a line through the ball joints to the ground. The distance from this point on the ground straight back to the center of the contact patch is called trail. The more trail you have, the more the weight of the quad returns the steering to zero (center). This is because turning makes the tire push down, which means the quad rises. Gravity takes over and the quad falls back to its lowest point. The trail length dictates the effectiveness of caster.

More caster makes the quad harder to steer because steering with caster physically raises the quad itself. Aka, turning = lifting the quad. It doesn’t turn faster, it doesn’t make it more nimble, none of that shit. It just adds resistance to turning.

TT setups don’t have much suspension and therefore don’t require much caster.

Desert setups have a ton of travel and bigger tires and are therefore prone to being in a more extreme dive.

Lower tire pressures require more caster. As a tire flattens on impact, it’s contact patch is pushed in effectively making the tire smaller for all intents and purposes. As the diameter decreases, the trail length becomes shorter. A better idea is to take the pressure out of the tires until they’re completely flat and take the same measurements. You’ll see that caster has to be increased to get the proper trail length.

Examples: 23” tire at 5psi and 12” of travel at 8” front ride height (damn near a trophy quad) will need 8-9 degrees of caster for super rough terrain and hard whoops). Dropping ride height to 7” will need 7-8. Higher tire pressures can drop another degree…
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I like the idea of setting the toe based on caster. I set the camber at 4.5. I will be honest, I just picked a number that was wishing a suggested range for trail riding. But even at full lock I have camber.

Caster was a little more difficult. I’m a tool and die maker so go crazy about dimensional accuracy as well.
I adjusted the caster based on what it felt like but kept them the same. Steering is sharp, which I like, and I track straight on pavement. I set the caster by the positions of the upper and lower ball joints, though. I am only at about 4 degrees there. I would ride and see what it felt like. Adjust it out or in and try again. I am going to try your method and see what it feels like.


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[tfaith08]

Too much offset (flipping rims and or using wheel spacers) will mean you can’t get enough toe or caster to keep the quad steering straight for shit.

If you wonder why, I’m sure I posted earlier but...

King pin inclination (KPI or also known as SAI - steering angle axis) is the line drawn through the ball joints when viewed from the front, and the line should extend to the ground. The common term these days is SAI but I call it KPI out of habit and both are equally correct.

KPI should always fall as close to the center of the contact patch as possible. The distance between KPI and the center of the contact patch is called scrub radius. If caster trail is the X component, scrub radius is the Y component.

If it falls inside, steering will take even more effort with added caster and you’ll fight the steering more. Impacts will hit harder and the ball joints will wear faster. You’ll also cause the tie rods to buckle some under impacts and hard braking (it’ll feel loose and somewhat difficult to find a good balance on corner entry).

You don’t adjust KPI, you adjust your tire and rim selection. Since any performance vehicle is designed starting with the contact patch and ending at the driver, this is a no brainer anyway.

Taller tires, less air pressure, and less offset reduce the scrub radius. Inversely, shorter tires, more pressure, and more offset increase scrub radius. Want zero scrub radius. Period. High speed race cars want more scrub radius and more caster angle for feel because you can feel the limit of traction more easily. Off-road setups don’t need feel, they need ease of operation, durability, and predictability.

Different knuckles have different KPIs. I don’t know any of them off hand since I just deal with YFZR components now. Don’t worry about swapping knuckles unless you have a good deal for all the components necessary.


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[Metal_man_Rob]

I’ll make a post for every new question that pops up.

Full flight is shit. Alba is diarrhea shit. eBay suspension anything is a step below alba.

Fireball, LSR, Roll, Laeger’s are top notch.

The reasons for this are simple in some cases and in some cases not.

Most arms are made of 4130. 4130 is the go to choice for high grade steel for suspension components in race quads. It differs from regular steel in that it contains around 1% chromium and 0.1% molybdenum and is considered a low-carbon alloy. That tiny little bit of chromium and molybdenum is worth another 30-35% strength over typical grades of steel, as well as good durability and flexibility. It welds great too. It does need to be post treated after welding for good strength, but not doing so is fine as long as you use a thick enough wall thickness to not require it. Basically, post treat means you can get away with a thinner wall and save weight.

Stainless arms as seen on eBay are NOT a good option. Some grades of stainless (Reynolds 953 is stainless and is my all time favorite material for critical structures but it is difficult to weld and insanely expensive and is superior to even titanium in every way) are fine, but the only material that is cheap enough to make arms for THAT price is 304 at best, which is already more difficult to weld and isn’t strong at all. Stainless arms are extremely unsafe.

Not all 4130 is the same. American and German are the top choices. Some Chinese steel marketed as 4130 is no different than regular steel. Don’t trust it. But... how else can you make arms for as cheap as alba and full flight?


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I have American Star a arms. Those are 4130. To be honest I liked that they are manufactured in the US but cost less than the LSR and roll design which were what I was looking at initially. My swing arm is made by a guy in Michigan who basically does it all on the side, made to order. Definitely good craftsmanship.
I heard good and bad about fireball and Alba. The American Star arms were comparable in price. The main reason I went with the swing arm I did is the amount of time I’d have had to wait for roll design or LSR. They were months out. Maybe down the road I will go for it


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[tfaith08]

I appreciate it. I ended up going with the description above and was able to give Ella all of the info including leverage ratio. I went with the stage 2 shocks since I am really the only one who rides it and the only place I ride is crazy, muddy mountain trails.
I use 23 fronts and 22 rear tires and with my rebuilt stock rear, Ella fronts with +2+1 stock travel arms I am loving it.
I do plan on upgrading the steering stem and going with some better bars. Thought about flex bars.
The quad makes it through and over everything, handles very predictably and I am very happy with the front end and this post helped a ton!
I dropped the front sprocket to 13t to compensate for the larger tires. Have a roundhouse stock length swing arm now with a +4 axle. I was worried the maneuverability would go south but it actually become much more predictable.
Still haven’t bottomed out the suspension yet and have gone off some pretty intense ledges.


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I’m glad it helped bud. That’s exactly what I’m here for.


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[tfaith08]

I have American Star a arms. Those are 4130. To be honest I liked that they are manufactured in the US but cost less than the LSR and roll design which were what I was looking at initially. My swing arm is made by a guy in Michigan who basically does it all on the side, made to order. Definitely good craftsmanship.
I heard good and bad about fireball and Alba. The American Star arms were comparable in price. The main reason I went with the swing arm I did is the amount of time I’d have had to wait for roll design or LSR. They were months out. Maybe down the road I will go for it


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I honestly don’t know much about AS arms. I rarely ever see them.

Most swingarms are fine. Not because they’re engineered correctly, but because the manufacturers are scared for them to break and compensate with greater wall thickness.

I’m going to develop a swingarm at some point, but I’m working on a chassis design at the moment. The hard part isn’t bending, it’s twisting. For that, I like a round tube lattice instead of box tube. I personally love JL Engineering swingarms.


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[Metal_man_Rob]

Too much offset (flipping rims and or using wheel spacers) will mean you can’t get enough toe or caster to keep the quad steering straight for shit.

If you wonder why, I’m sure I posted earlier but...

King pin inclination (KPI or also known as SAI - steering angle axis) is the line drawn through the ball joints when viewed from the front, and the line should extend to the ground. The common term these days is SAI but I call it KPI out of habit and both are equally correct.

KPI should always fall as close to the center of the contact patch as possible. The distance between KPI and the center of the contact patch is called scrub radius. If caster trail is the X component, scrub radius is the Y component.

If it falls inside, steering will take even more effort with added caster and you’ll fight the steering more. Impacts will hit harder and the ball joints will wear faster. You’ll also cause the tie rods to buckle some under impacts and hard braking (it’ll feel loose and somewhat difficult to find a good balance on corner entry).

You don’t adjust KPI, you adjust your tire and rim selection. Since any performance vehicle is designed starting with the contact patch and ending at the driver, this is a no brainer anyway.

Taller tires, less air pressure, and less offset reduce the scrub radius. Inversely, shorter tires, more pressure, and more offset increase scrub radius. Want zero scrub radius. Period. High speed race cars want more scrub radius and more caster angle for feel because you can feel the limit of traction more easily. Off-road setups don’t need feel, they need ease of operation, durability, and predictability.

Different knuckles have different KPIs. I don’t know any of them off hand since I just deal with YFZR components now. Don’t worry about swapping knuckles unless you have a good deal for all the components necessary.


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That’s awesome. Thanks for that, man. I’m going to go do the caster over again with this tip. I feel like my scrub radius is inside. I adjusted til it felt as smooth as possible. But I want to try it all over and see if I can make it even better.


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[Metal_man_Rob]

I honestly don’t know much about AS arms. I rarely ever see them.

Most swingarms are fine. Not because they’re engineered correctly, but because the manufacturers are scared for them to break and compensate with greater wall thickness.

I’m going to develop a swingarm at some point, but I’m working on a chassis design at the moment. The hard part isn’t bending, it’s twisting. For that, I like a round tube lattice instead of box tube. I personally love JL Engineering swingarms.


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Are those the arms that Vito’s sells? I stopped buying from them.


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[tfaith08]

Are those the arms that Vito’s sells? I stopped buying from them.


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No idea. Honestly, my affinity for JL was from years ago when I built my MX banshee and from talking to people I trust, but the most recent interaction I’ve had with anything JL was around 2018.

If there is some sort of relationship between Vito’s and JL, it’s totally news to me. They may sell his stuff but idk to be honest.


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[Metal_man_Rob]

No idea. Honestly, my affinity for JL was from years ago when I built my MX banshee and from talking to people I trust, but the most recent interaction I’ve had with anything JL was around 2018.

If there is some sort of relationship between Vito’s and JL, it’s totally news to me. They may sell his stuff but idk to be honest.


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Either way, thanks a ton for taking so much time to post all of this. This is awesome. For me, suspension means a hell of a lot more to me than speed.


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