trickedcarbine Posted February 16, 2016 Report Share Posted February 16, 2016 There is a rhyme and reason to the needle/pilot transition, but no the needle has nothing to do with idle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trickedcarbine Posted February 17, 2016 Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 (edited) You haven't proved shit. I am not sure about you, but I have never launched a bike from idle aka zero throttle. At idle, the main jet, and needle have zero effect. This is air screw and pilot jet that effect idle. Once you open the slides, then main jet and needle come into effect. Wow, that's a little abrasive. Edited February 17, 2016 by trickedcarbine 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chukkinsod Posted February 17, 2016 Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 Chuck, you might need to drill out the carb body in the pilot circuit, I've done it plenty of times on Alky bikes. The tiny lil hole that faces the intake doesn't flow enouph fuel at idle Is that a pita to do or pretty simple? Sounds simple but I know normally how those things end up going. What size do you drill them to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsuckDIX Posted February 17, 2016 Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 Wow, that's a little abrasive. Can't get rid of shit without some abrasion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bansheenate Posted February 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2016 First of all I wouldn't listen to anyone with a stupid username called suxdixx.secondly I created this post which had no misguided info as you call it. I was simply stating a situation that I had with pj carbs. When the slide is all the way down at an idle situation,there is no rubber gasket stopping a very small amount of fuel from sneaking past the slide coming from the main jet/needle.the needle just drops down into a hole that has gas in a float bowl.so when my 58 pilot was to fat in conjunction with a slight amount of fuel sneaking past the very bottom of the slide, which is vibrating while the engine is running. Dropping the needle plugs that hole even more so than when before,thus slowing the amount of fuel getting past the slide which leaned out my too large of a pilot situation. If a pwk and most stock carbs idle is set by raising the slide ever so slightly. Just like the idle knobs on a TORS system raise the slide on a stock banshee. This is the same effect. You really think fuel can't sneak past the fucking slide that is vibrating while the motor is pulling air as hard as it can?hell,when your float bowl gasket is even slightly crushed or worn out,fuel will run right past that dam gasket even when the petcock is shut and just the fuel inside your float is all the pressure it has.the needle can act like a power jet does to a main jet when running alcohol.it does it to the pilot jet instead.With the 58 pilot,my motor would only idle at the top clip. When I lower the pilot and got closer to 42,it would idle on the 4th clip.so as you lean your pilot,you are able to put the needle to a richer setting.you guys act like the dam carb is a sealed frickin unit and that the dam needle just stops all fuel flow from the main.last time I checked the needle isn't the same size of the dump tube. It just blocks 90% until it starts to rise. Remember,it doesn't have a rubber gasket like a float needle that stops fuel completely.overlapping circuits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bansheenate Posted February 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2016 Take a banshee with pj carbs. Put a few sizes too large of a pilot jet. Try to use the choke knobs to set idle. When it won't idle. Drop the needle all the way. When you get it to idle write back again. That chart is correct.as I quoted before. You can use this method to find out how rich you are on the pilot with pj carbs.you don't use it to make it idle for the duration. You lower the pilot until you hit the sweet spot that tricked carbine was talking about. 7-1/2 to 8 turns out.so technically the clip will effect idle if your jetting is way off like mine was. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bansheenate Posted February 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2016 Take a banshee with pj carbs. Put a few sizes too large of a pilot jet. Try to use the choke knobs to set idle. When it won't idle. Drop the needle all the way. When you get it to idle write back again. That chart is correct.as I quoted before. You can use this method to find out how rich you are on the pilot with pj carbs.you don't use it to make it idle for the duration. You lower the pilot until you hit the sweet spot that tricked carbine was talking about. 7-1/2 to 8 turns out.so technically the clip will effect idle if your jetting is way off like mine was. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheerider11 Posted February 18, 2016 Report Share Posted February 18, 2016 You said that chart is correct. Doesn't it say clip position comes into effect after 1/8 throttle? But you say different. So... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bansheenate Posted February 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2016 It's funny. I don't know why this site even exists when you try something and nobody believes you anyways.this actually just recently happened to me while jetting my bike.its funny how nobody will take the time to try it with a pair of pj's and see for themselves.using the needle to make it idle would make you too lean at the range the clip position effects.most banshees in California at sea level with pipes,mild or drag porting like a58 pilot. That's why I started with that after building my triple exhaust port motor that had the same port job I've done on other bikes without the triple ports.i figured that was gonna be close.but I was wrong. That's what made me think it was other problems than a simple jetting problem. So again try it if you own a pj carbed banshee and you will see for yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bansheenate Posted February 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2016 As I said before it will affect it if your pilot is way too fat and you lean out the needle all the way down and it will idle. It has to be what I stated before.small amount of fuel must sneak past the bottom of the slide at idle.with the needle in the middle clip it wouldn't idle for the life of me. I swear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trickedcarbine Posted February 18, 2016 Report Share Posted February 18, 2016 Take a banshee with pj carbs. Put a few sizes too large of a pilot jet. (Then you've already identified the problem, why not fix it by putting the proper pilot in instead of messing with the needle?) Try to use the choke knobs to set idle. When it won't idle. Drop the needle all the way. (Here is why you are experiencing this phenomenon. Your comment above you stated the needle just goes in to a hole with fuel. Well kinda, but that hole is the Main Jet. If your slides aren't dropping down all the way, which is another problem you are over looking, they can hold the needle up a bit out of the Main jet and fuel is sneaking past the taper. So now there is way to fat of a fat pilot, slide not closing properly which is mimicking when you first wack the throttle. Now instead of fixing your slide and lowering the pilot, you chose to drop the needle all the way so that the needle's taper is in contact to the main jet which stops excess fuel.) When you get it to idle write back again. (Fix your issue above, and write back) That chart is correct.as I quoted before. You can use this method to find out how rich you are on the pilot with pj carbs.you don't use it to make it idle for the duration. You lower the pilot until you hit the sweet spot that tricked carbine was talking about. 7-1/2 to 8 turns out.so technically the clip will effect idle if your jetting is way off like mine was. Thanks Your homework is to strip a PJ carb and clean it all up and bag the parts up. Take all the old magazines out of the bathroom and replace them with said clean carb. That carb is now your "reading material" every time you are on the John. I know you are determined, but for some reason you are looking past the proper way of doing things in effort to just keep trying different stuff with hopes that you will get some magic tune up. These things are so simple if you can follow the simple jetting procedures the folks at Sudco, Keihin, Mikuni, etc.... You literally have a few people explaining to you how it works, but refuse to accept that maybe you are doing it wrong... Yes, I know you build your own stuff. You reiterated it in your last few posts, but it means nothing if you can't tune it to run to its potential. If you build the baddest monster in the dunes, nobody will ever know if you can't make it run right. You really think that it's a good idea to have the bike blubbery rich on bottom, then go full lean on the needle when you wack the throttle, then go back to rich/safe on the main? Let me ask you this, how's the bike launch and pull? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bansheenate Posted February 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2016 Look,I have told the truth from the beginning.I have had these carbs since I bought my bike used in 1995.it had a mild port job and toomies with clamp on k&n's.those 58 pilots worked with every motor change I did. Even when I had a big bore 420.and all the bikes I have worked on had port jobs from many different builders. Some were Dean Sundahl and some no names.at our altitude they all used 58 pilots. Even the Alba racing banshees.when you build something you have never done before it kinda fucks with your head.I did a leakdown test obviously.I knew that stockers with pipes were usually around s 150 main.very mild port jobs would like 155. Drag ported without triple exhaust ports wanted 162.and my 420 big bore loved 172 main.So I had an idea of where I was gonna start with my main jet on this new motor. I was surprised that it wanted a 160. I started at 168 to be safe and worked my way down. The pilot is what got me trippin.so I thought it was interesting on how while trying to get it to idle,the clip position made it idle all of the sudden when for years everyone said it could never happen. My neighbors hate drag pipes of course and I'm waiting on some 38 and 40 pilots to come in the mail. I will let you know when I get it 7-1/2 to 8turns out.thats why I don't fuck with it every day. I don't have a race shop in a industrial area where I can fire a loud ass drag motor with stinger tips every 5 minutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bansheenate Posted February 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2016 Look,I have told the truth from the beginning.I have had these carbs since I bought my bike used in 1995.it had a mild port job and toomies with clamp on k&n's.those 58 pilots worked with every motor change I did. Even when I had a big bore 420.and all the bikes I have worked on had port jobs from many different builders. Some were Dean Sundahl and some no names.at our altitude they all used 58 pilots. Even the Alba racing banshees.when you build something you have never done before it kinda fucks with your head.I did a leakdown test obviously.I knew that stockers with pipes were usually around s 150 main.very mild port jobs would like 155. Drag ported without triple exhaust ports wanted 162.and my 420 big bore loved 172 main.So I had an idea of where I was gonna start with my main jet on this new motor. I was surprised that it wanted a 160. I started at 168 to be safe and worked my way down. The pilot is what got me trippin.so I thought it was interesting on how while trying to get it to idle,the clip position made it idle all of the sudden when for years everyone said it could never happen. My neighbors hate drag pipes of course and I'm waiting on some 38 and 40 pilots to come in the mail. I will let you know when I get it 7-1/2 to 8turns out.thats why I don't fuck with it every day. I don't have a race shop in a industrial area where I can fire a loud ass drag motor with stinger tips every 5 minutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bansheenate Posted February 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2016 Also I was gonna stop at Duncan to purchase a bunch of pilot jets before heading out to the desert and he talked me out of it saying the 58 should be fine. That's why I dropped the needle out there cause it was bogging off of idle. Sorry I didn't mean to say launch. I had no pilot jets to fuck with. And I only made that one short pass when the bike wouldn't idle down but would idle. I put the bike away and drank beer the rest of the trip. I know when not to push it.i then knew I had to go home and buy a bunch of pilots. That's how I got to the beginning of this crazy ass post in the first place. Lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trickedcarbine Posted February 18, 2016 Report Share Posted February 18, 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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