SDD Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 http://www.engineersedge.com/heat_treat.htm This is a website with info about Heat Treating metals, specifically steels. Just incase anyone wanted to learn a little about how to harden metal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fixitrod Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 I know it may be hard to understand,but look at a breakdown of a clutch,look at the parts,visualize what they do,how they move and see how they are effected.Its the only true way you'll ever understand why it does what it does. Actually, when you hold the clutch all the way, the pressure plate doesn't spin at all. Actually, the pressure plate wouldn't start moving until the bike did. Dragging the clutch while taking off may cause the problem, but not just holding it. Or improper clutch cable adjustment. Actually, the ball is always in contact with the pressure plate and gets the most relief when pulled. The spring from the "push lever" keeps tension on it at all time. That ball just spins like crazy all the time. Good advice by the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fixitrod Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 to fix it, couldn't you set the motor in a drill press and start drilling it. You could just keep a magnet handy to catch the shavings. Once you got in a little ways, it would break free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MULLET~BOY Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 fixitrod not do are you saying when you pull the clutch that the ball gets realiefe ? thats what it sounds like if so that would be wrong when you pull the clutch it pushes the rod into the ball witch pushes the presure plate out correct ? thats why you see them get welded togeather when you pull the clutch in going down a hill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fixitrod Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 When going down hill, You are make the pressure plate move because you are forcing the tranny to move. That makes since. But sitting at idle with the clutch pulled...The pressure plate wouldn't spin. But yes, going down hill would put pressure and spin on that ball. Worst of both world. Cruising and holding the clutch in a lot would do the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightrider Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 You got it Jethro!Thats why they get welded together.its better to fully engage the clutch a couple of times down those hills or kick it into neutral.Even if you just pop it out for a second,it will give it some time to lubricate the tip of the rod. Holding the clutch lever all the way in will produce the most force on that rod,ball and cup. Which naturally forces the oil out from in between and leaves a thin film to lubricate. At an idle,it would probably take a very long time to weld the ball(or a very big downhill),but revving it up with the clutch pulled in will rapidly breakdown that oil film between the two metal surfaces. Fixitrod,your pressure plate is spinning even at idle.Ever have your quad on a lift and started it.Even when its in neutral.The tires tend to spin a little when you blip the throttle. There is no 100% disengagement,its part of the reason they use wet clutches.It shears the oil rather than the lining. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MULLET~BOY Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 yes night rider is 100% correct they spin becouse your crank is still spinnning the crank is conected to the gear on the back of the clutch by a gear so you can still weld it togeather at idle if you kept revving her up like you do in a dragg race Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fixitrod Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 The clutch is connected to the clutch basket... not the hub. The pressure plate and hub connect to the tranny. If the wheels aren't spinning, the pressure plates not spinning. Unless there some magic happening in my tranny. Now, I could see that happening in nuetral.......but not in gear. There is some rubbing happening on the friction plates, but the pressure plate will not move in gear unless the wheels are moving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banchetta Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 I'll be changing my clutches next month when I pull my shee totally apart for a freshening up.....I'll look at the the clutch set up better and post my oppinion on this....The one thing I do know, is that I abuse my clutch severly on the hills I climb and never had a problem exept when I'm dragging and slipping the clutch for long periods of time...never had a problem when fully disengaged, only semi engaged..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcaf29 Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 Fixitrod got it! The pressure plate screws in to the hub, the hub connects to the tranny, With the clutch pulled, the the basket spins with the crank therefore the friction plates spin freely (not perfectly free) inside the steel plates. The steel plates are attached to the hub (which is attached to the pressure plate). So when your banshee is not moving with the clutch pulled there is no extra wear on the ball because the hub is not moving. The only thing that would cause the ball to weld in this case is if the friction plates cause enough heat transfer to the metal plates then in turn heat tranfer to hub then to the ball. This is not likely cause no one has mentioned the metal plates having burn marks. The most likely time of failure is when the clutch is not fully engaged or disengaged. Say your coasting down a huge hill while pulling the clutch half way. You now have lateral force on the pushrod and ball but the pressure plate and hub are not fully disengaged from the basket. So now you got the ball under pressure and spinning so you get failure from heat buildup. Just my take on it. Please take with grain of salt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fixitrod Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 Fixitrod got it! The pressure plate screws in to the hub, the hub connects to the tranny, With the clutch pulled, the the basket spins with the crank therefore the friction plates spin freely (not perfectly free) inside the steel plates. The steel plates are attached to the hub (which is attached to the pressure plate). So when your banshee is not moving with the clutch pulled there is no extra wear on the ball because the hub is not moving. The only thing that would cause the ball to weld in this case is if the friction plates cause enough heat transfer to the metal plates then in turn heat tranfer to hub then to the ball. This is not likely cause no one has mentioned the metal plates having burn marks. The most likely time of failure is when the clutch is not fully engaged or disengaged. Say your coasting down a huge hill while pulling the clutch half way. You now have lateral force on the pushrod and ball but the pressure plate and hub are not fully disengaged from the basket. So now you got the ball under pressure and spinning so you get failure from heat buildup. Just my take on it. Please take with grain of salt. At least someone understands what I'm trying to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightrider Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 You are both correct "if" the clutch systems are in top condition.In this case,you'll probably do more damage to the linings.Like I was saying the disegagement isn't 100%.Clutches will always drag a bit.The more worn out the basket is the harder it becomes to fully disengage the clutch.I had it right too,just backwards.Maybe I'll go hit another PIPE! Ever been on one of those bikes that starts to die when the bike is kicked in to gear even when the clutch is pulled in.The fingers on the basket probably look like sharks teeth.I would say that one of these machines will be more than likely to develop welded ball syndrome. I think Mcaf summed it up. Let me ask you guys this,where does your clutch disengage at,What part of the lever pull? Two years on a stock clutch,with some dragging.The release and engagement point are at the very beginnig of the pull,maybe less than 1/4 from the maximum release point.It just seems weird.My dirtbikes always started to grab around the middle of the release.This one grabs at the very end? It idles great and seems like it has excellent engagement,but it sucks for racing.I hate clutches that grab at the top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fixitrod Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 You are both correct "if" the clutch systems are in top condition. Fixitrod,your pressure plate is spinning even at idle.Ever have your quad on a lift and started it.Even when its in neutral.The tires tend to spin a little when you I doesn't matter, if the wheels aren't moving the pressure plates not moving and the ball isn't spinning. The pressure plate does not spin at idle while in gear and parked!!!! It just can't. The seperation of engine and tranny are at the clutch basket and pressureplate/innerhub of the clutch. The connecting point is the fibers and steels. I know it may be hard to understand,but look at a breakdown of a clutch,look at the parts,visualize what they do,how they move and see how they are effected.Its the only true way you'll ever understand why it does what it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fixitrod Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 Just so you know, I have put that clutch together 5 or 6 times in the last 2 months. First my clutch went, then I broke the basket, then I had to keep taking it apart to get the shaving out of there, then my crank went and had to rebuild the motor. I am talking from experience....not just running my mouth. I don't have to visualize, I had my hands on it and seen how it worked. You know what, this is like pissing in the wind.... I'm done cause I'm getting to wet..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightrider Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 First off Fixit,you need to go back and reread the posts and see where I corrected myself after Mcaf's explanation.I was a liitle confused untill I drew it out on paper and looked at it,then it made sense.Somebody corrected me an I appreciate it. I never doubted your theory,but after you told me about your clutch problems and having to tear it apart 5-6 times in 2 months before you got it right,makes me believe that your a shady mechanic or someone who half asses shit. I never had any clutch issues with my shee yet,but when I do I'll make sure its done right the first time.Even if I had to buy everything new and split the cases to get the broken bits out.I know it probably sucks,but it if it has to be done then oh well. So thats how you got the name FIXIT huh?When I said to visulize the parts and how they work,I was speaking in general,not at you.This goes for anything,not just the clutch system.It was hard for me to visualize it with "smoke"on the brain." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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