Rockets or cpi for my little motor

[gusto]

Zilla, spill the beans.

[Nightmare]

Zilla, spill the beans.

There's only a select few "including myself" that know what's in the works. Be patient young patawon.

[Zillaguy]

Zilla, spill the beans.

Can't man it's not my place.. But, it won't be much longer.. From what i understand before Christmas we will all get to see.

[Thack82]

Zilla and Nightmare are right Tom and Ron have been developing on a new set of pipes that I believe will set the SB standard and be the new pipe to beat. The Borrink Brothers have spent hours perfecting the new pipes "R3's", the new design looks a lot like its predecessors but pipe comes on sooner and signs off later. The R3 also offers a lot of upgraded features that no other pipe builder or manufacture offer like billet/polyurethane vibration dampening pipe/silencer hangers, titanium silencer hardware, four spring hangers per pipe, a triple high-temp o-ring flange, dual high-temp o-ring seal collars for the stingers and silencers, stainless steel silencer cores, stainless steel silencer in/out caps, and extremely high quality ceramic packing that will NEVER need to be replaced unless it becomes oil saturated. 

 

From what I understand he's also offering a few different silencer sizes and options. At one time he was talking about developing a turbine style spark arrestor that for some of his silencers. I expect the chrome R3's with stingers and a standard 8" silencers to cost about the same as the Sniper Assassin In-Frames ($1,000). IMO Tom's new pipes will be worth every penny!    

 

 

BANSHEEBEEFM2M the Rocket Pipes have a few distinguishing characteristics that makes them easy to identify. The R1's and R2's have no cuts in them, they are made from two stampings welded together in a seam that runs right down the center of each pipe. The Rocket's are also the only pipes I know of that are perfect mirror images of each other from left to right. I attached a picture of my R2's bellow. As you can see the Rocket's are quit-a-bit different looking than the pipes you had posted at the beginning of this thread.          

 

 

[Thack82]

As of right now custom built big bore in-frames pipes that are matched to the specifics of a particular motor like the 10 mil Super Cubs/Servals, Power Valve Cheetahs, DM/DMX Cheetahs, ect are limited to Arlan Lehman's custom built Hand Coned In-Frames, I have a strong feeling there will be other custom built pipe option for those bigger motors in 2015. Tom has also been talking about custom building big bore pipes that are custom tailored to match the big bore CP Mono-Cylinders, port specs, dome specs, and the riding/racing you plan on doing. I have personally seen pictures of a few different pipe set ups that Tom has custom built and they are nothing short of art work, they are absolutely beautiful!

[gusto]

good info right there.  Thanks for the update, appreciated.  I am looking at new pipes and tq is important to me.  Cant wait to see the numbers on these new rockets.  They are the nicest looking pipe imo.

[Thack82]

Nate at K a N Powersport's has my R2's right now and he's doing extensive dyno testing with his 4 mil dune ported stock cylinder using the R2's, T5's, CPI's and any other small bore pipe that he can get his hands on. IMO the pipe testing that Cam and Tyler did was manipulated and pretty much useless. I didn't see any point in doing a small bore pipe comparison on a big bore 521cc Super Serval that was specifically ported and set up to run at its full potential with one particular pipe. Then slapping a set of R1's Small Bore Pipes that were built for motors that were 450cc and smaller and set of CPI Big Bore Pipes that were made for 450cccc+ motors on 521cc Super Serval without adjusting the jetting or plotting the AFR reading on the chart.

 

What exactly did that pipe test show you? Sniper's Pipes that were spec'd out for a ported 521cc Serval would perform better than a set of Stamped Small Bore R1 Rocket's that were built to run on engines ranging from 350cc-450cc's? A big bore pipe will perform better on a big bore motor than small bore pipes will on a big bore motor? Or carburetors that are jetted for one specific set of pipes will yield better numbers than a set of carburetors that are not jetted for one specific set of pipes? 

 

That test didn't show me anything I didn't already know.                

[Thack82]

sounds like you need to do a bit more research....  I spoke to a few builders on the Rocket pipes... and most of them recommended if those pipes (r2's at the time) where going to be ran on something to be ran on a larger CC motor from a 421-465 due to the expansion chamber size and cone / shape of the pipe....     now its been ages since this convo was done so I don't remember what exactly was said... but yea. I know it was when the r2's originally just cameo out anyways

 

 

also the test was not only done on that larger motor..  there where a couple of different motors they where tested if I remember right.. and in all reality.. relevant...   everything is going to be bias as each pipe likes different specs..  

 

 

that still doesnt answer the matter of fact that borrink magically disapeared once the r2's became a solid flip leaving the current owners high and dry.....   no thanks.. i want a builder to be around so I know I can get parts or get fixes or be able to answer questions when it comes to the specs of the pipes...     what use is having those pipes a builder willing to work on them down the road but the maker being MIA and not around to provide the needed  details to the builder.  

 

I can't really say a lot about what Tom did in the past. If he up and disappeared and left his loyal customers hanging that was wrong. I'm just basing what I say off my personal experiences I've had dealing with him. As far as I know when he was in the pipe building game he was a very good guy to deal with. I actually talked to Tom a few years ago when I was trying to hunt down a R2 setup for my 392cc Serval and at that time he had been out of the pipe building game for quite some time. I think Tom originally took on more than he could handle and the guy he had marketing the pipes was actually selling more pipes than Tom could build and he got burned out. He told me he's building 50 sets of the new R3's before he ever sell's the first set. Then he's going to built them in sets of ten. If they sell good there will be a first come first serve waiting list that customers can get on and receive a estimated ETA. He's not going back into pipe building full time. He plans on building fewer sets of the higher quality R3's which will cost more and help even out the supply and demand issues he ran into with the R2's.           

 

As far as the displacement range is concerned the 421cc-465cc range was actually what the Original R1's were better suited for because they have a larger diameter stinger tube and silencer core. I could be wrong though, either way I misspoke there.     

[Thack82]

What about GRR, WK, Mcoy, Shearer, Sniper?

 

 

Is GRR still in business? I thought Andy shut his shop down.

 

To my knowledge LED Custom Hand Coned In-Frames was the only Big Bore In-Frame Pipe Option available for the bigger DM/DMX Cheetah's that came equipped with a big bore flange and 1 1/8" diameter stinger tubes. Now that I think about it Sniper does offer a custom tailored big bore In-frame but I've never seen a bigger DM or DMX running them. I think the others you listed only make OOF's.      

[locogato11283]

Nate at K a N Powersport's has my R2's right now and he's doing extensive dyno testing with his 4 mil dune ported stock cylinder using the R2's, T5's, CPI's and any other small bore pipe that he can get his hands on. IMO the pipe testing that Cam and Tyler did was manipulated and pretty much useless. I didn't see any point in doing a small bore pipe comparison on a big bore 521cc Super Serval that was specifically ported and set up to run at its full potential with one particular pipe. Then slapping a set of R1's Small Bore Pipes that were built for motors that were 450cc and smaller and set of CPI Big Bore Pipes that were made for 450cccc+ motors on 521cc Super Serval without adjusting the jetting or plotting the AFR reading on the chart.

 

What exactly did that pipe test show you? Sniper's Pipes that were spec'd out for a ported 521cc Serval would perform better than a set of Stamped Small Bore R1 Rocket's that were built to run on engines ranging from 350cc-450cc's? A big bore pipe will perform better on a big bore motor than small bore pipes will on a big bore motor? Or carburetors that are jetted for one specific set of pipes will yield better numbers than a set of carburetors that are not jetted for one specific set of pipes? 

 

That test didn't show me anything I didn't already know.                

 

I was actually pretty impressed with your posting today as I also know about Tom's new pipes.. Then you had to go and act like a fucking idiot..

 

Manipulated how?

 

The scenarios and motor combos you stated above are not true. That's not even close to what we did.

 

We tested some 4mm Cubs and a 10mm Serval. All require small bore pipes.

 

We tested shelf pipes on available motors. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

And until the testing we did, you didn't know shit, because not you or anyone else had done the testing we did.

 

You were better off gone from this forum. You're still as dumb as you were.

[Zillaguy]

I was actually pretty impressed with your posting today as I also know about Tom's new pipes.. Then you had to go and act like a fucking idiot..

 

Manipulated how?

 

The scenarios and motor combos you stated above are not true. That's not even close to what we did.

 

We tested some 4mm Cubs and a 10mm Serval. All require small bore pipes.

 

We tested shelf pipes on available motors. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

And until the testing we did, you didn't know shit, because not you or anyone else had done the testing we did.

 

You were better off gone from this forum. You're still as dumb as you were.

How do you think Toms new pipes especially the BB ones are going to stack up against whats out there now? I can say from 1st hand experience the Rockets I bought from you made a WORLD of difference on my bike. I absolutly love these pipes!

[Thack82]

I was actually pretty impressed with your posting today as I also know about Tom's new pipes.. Then you had to go and act like a fucking idiot..

 

Manipulated how?

 

The scenarios and motor combos you stated above are not true. That's not even close to what we did.

 

We tested some 4mm Cubs and a 10mm Serval. All require small bore pipes.

 

We tested shelf pipes on available motors. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

And until the testing we did, you didn't know shit, because not you or anyone else had done the testing we did.

 

You were better off gone from this forum. You're still as dumb as you were.

 

 

If I remember correctly the Shearer In-Frames used for the testing were big bores, right?

 

I didn't mean to piss you off all I was saying was I didn't think it was fair to compare a sb pipes to big bore pipes on a big bore motor. I know you said the AFR's we so close that the jetting didn't need to be adjusted from pipe to pipe but the AFR Charts weren't posted so how close is close? In my experience I have found that some pipes are a lot more forgiving in a rich/lean condition than others. For example, my Serval would run better on rich side than it would if it was just a little lean. To me the testing would have been more valid if all the pipes tested had been small bore versions on a 421cc (small bore) motor and the jetting had been adjusted adoringly for each individual set of pipes.

 

Maybe I shouldn't have referred to the testing as manipulated, but the motor was fine tuned with the Sniper Assassin's and then other pipes were tested using the tuning that was best suited to Snipers. I'm not saying the results would have been any different if the carbs had been tuned and dialed in perfect for each pipe but I don't think the results would have been quit as drastic. The jetting doesn't have to be off by a lot to show a 3hp gain or loss at the back tires. I've personally seen guys pick up 8-10 horsepower dyno tuning with a wide band on a bike that they thought was dialed in damn near perfect.                     

Edited October 14, 2014 by Thack82

[locogato11283]

How do you think Toms new pipes especially the BB ones are going to stack up against whats out there now? I can say from 1st hand experience the Rockets I bought from you made a WORLD of difference on my bike. I absolutly love these pipes!

 

I think Tom is very capable of building good pipes. That's pretty evident from the stuff he's produced in the past.

 

I have talked to him about them and I know we can get the proper testing done on them. That will make a huge difference.

 

Of course, you will always have morons like Thacker trying to discredit or make a big deal out of simple testing.

[locogato11283]

If I remember correctly the Shearer In-Frames used for the testing were big bores, right?

 

I didn't mean to piss you off all I was saying was I didn't think it was fair to compare a sb pipes to big bore pipes on a big bore motor. I know you said the AFR's we so close that the jetting didn't need to be adjusted from pipe to pipe but the AFR Charts weren't posted so how close is close? In my experience I have found that some pipes are a lot more forgiving in a rich/lean condition than others. For example, my Serval would run better on rich side than it would if it was just a little lean. To me the testing would have been more valid if all the pipes tested had been small bore versions on a 421cc (small bore) motor and the jetting had been adjusted adoringly for each individual set of pipes.

 

Maybe I shouldn't have referred to the testing as manipulated, but the motor was fine tuned with the Sniper Assassin's and then other pipes were tested using the tuning that was best suited to Snipers. I'm not saying the results would have been any different if the carbs had been tuned and dialed in perfect for each pipe but I don't think the results would have been quit as drastic. The jetting doesn't have to be off by a lot to show a 3hp gain or loss at the back tires. I've personally seen guys pick up 8-10 horsepower dyno tuning with a wide band on a bike that they thought was dialed in damn near perfect.

NO, you are not remembering correctly. NO big bores were tested.

 

Again, your second paragraph is wrong. We ran testing on three different motors built by three different builders. They were all completely different setups.

 

Do you always just run around making up shit to fit your agenda?

 

You'd be taken a lot more serious if you stuck to the facts.

[Thack82]

I made a simple suggestion and stated my opinion on what felt would produce more fair and accurate results. I admitted I was wrong in calling the results "manipulated". I'm sorry for saying that, I should have worded it differently.