trickedcarbine Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 Question..... How much weight on the sling shot lock up, and what springs? All on an 8 plate?Do you think that with that ginormous clutch set up plus heavy heavier components like the basket and lock up are a factor in why the clutch gets slipped so much? Also assuming you're on 22" tires? I've done some weird stuff with the clutch as well, but I definitely know it takes a lot of motor to move that much clutch. There is some cut off point in weight. And if you have to abuse it to get it to the point where you're destroying baskets, it may be last that point. By the way, the baskets you ruined were on the bottom of the barrel at that time. The current Mattoon is deecent. I'm not totally against the steel basket thing. It just needs some refining. KTM..... Lots of current automatic transmission parts to pull ideas. I was kinda where you were after 2 seasons on the ice I ruined 2 clutch baskets. I had Super heavy springs on an 8 plate Barnett basket on my stock stroke Big bore 400, an 440cc 4mil big bore. The sling shot was loaded per driveline directions. 2 balls in each short slot. I just had to beat the shit out of it to get the bike moving. I had tons of tire, tons of traction, heavy bike like you. I toasted the baskets and inner hub in a season. I could get the bike to do what I wanted with manual feathering of the clutch but it really abused parts. Not just the clutches but all the hard parts as well. I started looking at what drag bikes do and focused on how to get my bike to do what there's do but at a different point. I made changes everywhere and got the clutch totally fresh with OEM inner hub, Magnum/PE 7 plate basket, Springs from FAST, Drive line Clutch pack No springs, Barnett 3 HD 3 stock spring kit. Much less beef then the 8 plate set up but I gave it a go. I just thought about how snow mobiles clutch to put the power right where they need it depending on terrain. ( make it slip to where the bike makes the power where you want it) In a sense my goal was to make the bike take over the clutching so I don't keep feathering it my self. It sounds like a pussy thing to do, but I went from an overly aggressive wheelie machine off the start that still bogged in turns and needed tons of gear chopping and clutching to correct, to perfect predictable holeshots and a bike that jumps right on to the pipe. Doing so means beating clutches and steels but my current hard parts are now going on season 4 of these shenanigans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thack82 Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 I did have 6 stiff springs and 2 balls per groove when I junked those two baskets. I retuned my lock-up with a 1 ball/2 ball alternation with 3 new OEM springs and 3 Driveline 15% HD Springs when I added all the other shift mods, Hinson 8-Plate Inner Hub, and the steel basket. I run 10" HiPer's with 20" Rears and I've never had a bogging issue with the Serval. Maybe it was the 2 balls per groove and stiff driveline springs that caused my issues, I was only running 7-Plates on the other two baskets so the 8-Plate Clutch Kit didn't have anything to do with it. I have a year and a half of hard riding on the currant setup without a single issue. The transmission shifts a shit ton better for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thack82 Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 Question..... How much weight on the sling shot lock up, and what springs? All on an 8 plate?Do you think that with that ginormous clutch set up plus heavy heavier components like the basket and lock up are a factor in why the clutch gets slipped so much? Also assuming you're on 22" tires? I've done some weird stuff with the clutch as well, but I definitely know it takes a lot of motor to move that much clutch. There is some cut off point in weight. And if you have to abuse it to get it to the point where you're destroying baskets, it may be last that point. By the way, the baskets you ruined were on the bottom of the barrel at that time. The current Mattoon is deecent. I'm not totally against the steel basket thing. It just needs some refining. KTM..... Lots of current automatic transmission parts to pull ideas. I was kinda where you were after 2 seasons on the ice I ruined 2 clutch baskets. I had Super heavy springs on an 8 plate Barnett basket on my stock stroke Big bore 400, an 440cc 4mil big bore. The sling shot was loaded per driveline directions. 2 balls in each short slot. I just had to beat the shit out of it to get the bike moving. I had tons of tire, tons of traction, heavy bike like you. I toasted the baskets and inner hub in a season. I could get the bike to do what I wanted with manual feathering of the clutch but it really abused parts. Not just the clutches but all the hard parts as well. I started looking at what drag bikes do and focused on how to get my bike to do what there's do but at a different point. I made changes everywhere and got the clutch totally fresh with OEM inner hub, Magnum/PE 7 plate basket, Springs from FAST, Drive line Clutch pack No springs, Barnett 3 HD 3 stock spring kit. Much less beef then the 8 plate set up but I gave it a go. I just thought about how snow mobiles clutch to put the power right where they need it depending on terrain. ( make it slip to where the bike makes the power where you want it) In a sense my goal was to make the bike take over the clutching so I don't keep feathering it my self. It sounds like a pussy thing to do, but I went from an overly aggressive wheelie machine off the start that still bogged in turns and needed tons of gear chopping and clutching to correct, to perfect predictable holeshots and a bike that jumps right on to the pipe. Doing so means beating clutches and steels but my current hard parts are now going on season 4 of these shenanigans. You might have figured out why my bike chewed up aluminum baskets and no one else seems to have a issue. I had trouble keeping the clutches from slipping after they got hot in the woods so I had Lane at Driveline send me a stiff ass set of springs and the clutch pull was so stiff I had to go with a Hydraulic Lever to keep from getting arm pump fatigue in a Hare Scramble. It still didn't hold after it got hot so I went with a Driveline Stealth Lock-Up and had Withrow help me install it. He had never had any dealings with a Lock-Up because he's mainly a 4-Choke Dirt Bike rider. So we turned the bike up on its side and I read him the instructions, he loaded it with 2 balls per groove based of the instructions but he used the super stiff springs Driveline had sent me previously. Then during a race some time later the Lock-Up bolts backed out and a few fell out and shredded the outside of the Direct Drive Lock-Up Cover I had and beat the living shit out of my Lock-Up. Lucky for me the part of the cover that was screwed was replaceable so all I had to order was that piece and a new Lock-Up. I tuned the new lock-up myself. I used a 1 Ball/2 Ball alternation with 3 new OE Springs and 3 DL 15% HD Springs and staggered them so the DL spring was was close to the 1 Ball Groove and the new OE Spring was closest to the 2 Ball groove. The difference was night and day. As far as the bike bogging goes, I've never had a issue. It doesn't even bog with 22" Paddle Tires from a 2nd gear launch, it's always blew the tires off. With a old set of junk BTK AT111 20X11R9 I raced a 700 Raptor on pavement and my bike spun through the 60ft mark and left black marks on the pavement. I've never had a issue with it pulling big willies, even with the HiPer's and iRAZR's in tacky dirt my bike might pack the front tires 4-6" in 1st and 2nd but that's it. I attached a old picture I had of me racing a KOI 200ft Dirt Drag bellow. I was running paddle tires and that picture was taken at as I was crossing the 180ft marker, you can see the announcer/time tower that sets at the end of the track in the picture. I also attached a few You-Tube video links of me fine tuning the quad in a river bottom near my house and lugging up a steep traiI. Please keep in mind this was my Stock Stroke Trail Ported 392cc Serval that I built to play on in the woods and race a occasional "C" class hare scramble with. I'm sure it looks like slug compared to your guys big dune Banshee's but I felt like it ran very strong running concidering it has full body skids, frame guards, aluminum herl guards and all kinds of other stuff that adds weight, plus I weigh between 230-235lbs. In all four videos and the picture I'm running the the curant 8-Plate clutch setup including the steel basket, Stealth Lock-Up, and 16:41 Sprockets. Please listen to the autio, I think you guys see the steel basket doesn't seem to have a negative effect on the engine RPM's, it doesn't drag/bog the motor down what so ever. Let me know what you guys think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thack82 Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 (edited) Like I said I know my Banshee isn't the speed demons you guys are used to seeing but I thought my old set up ran pretty damn good considering the motor was a short stroke 54mm X 68mm FAST Trail Ported Serval that I built in my garage by my self almost 4yrs ago. I out ran just about everything around in the area where I live, but that's not saying a lot because everybody rides mildly built 400's, 450's, and 700's. The few Banshee's that are around are stock with pipes and ragged out. This new big boy motor I'm having built should blow people's mind around here. I just wish I could find a chassis builder that would build the custom long travel frame I designed and a +5 Arched Latter Swingarm! I wonder if Stellar would take on that project? Anyway I've got a few more videos of my bike in 4-6" of snow last winter with a set of sand paddle I have. It looks so cool throwing up all that snow. The new motor I'm having build is capable of producing tq numbers in the mid 70's, so it should really be a blast this winter. I'll see if I can get them loaded up on You-Tube today. Edited June 25, 2014 by Thack82 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave5.0 Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 Mid 70s in torque? What kinda hp? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanYE west Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 a motor making mid 70's in torque should be around 140-160 for HP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanYE west Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thack82 Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 Your right on on the HP. Mid-high 130s is the number estimated by the builder on 100LL Av-Gas with a 32:1 Pre-Mix. I don't want to say 130's for sure. I'd rather play it safe and say somewhere in the 120's, but it will be somewhere in the 70's on tq. It's not a 20 mil DM. You guys know me better than that. I'm building a big play motor that makes decent hp and awesome tq so I can ride this thing all day without wrenching on it or worry about taring it up. As much money as I've spent it better be reliable and respectable wherever I ride it. It won't hang with the big drag bikes on here but it will be a strong runner and one of a kind for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thack82 Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 I was looking at a big Serval but I've heard the bigger 10 mil + CP Super Series Cylinders are plagued with intake issues because they really need a bigger intake and reed setup to let them breath to their full potential. So I ended up going a different rout. I'll need a custom lightweight long travel frame and a +6 Arched Latter Swingarm before it will perform the way I want it to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanYE west Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 120hp through parts mostly intended for 30hp is a failure waiting to happen. its not if.. its when.. and being a "play" bike its more sooner then later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thack82 Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 120hp through parts mostly intended for 30hp is a failure waiting to happen. its not if.. its when.. and being a "play" bike its more sooner then later. What parts are you refuting to that I'll be running that's made for 30hp? Nothing but the frame, gas tank and a few parts in the transmission is OE factory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thack82 Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 120hp through parts mostly intended for 30hp is a failure waiting to happen. its not if.. its when.. and being a "play" bike its more sooner then later. The custom made billet crank and rods was over $1,800. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sprinklerman Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 Billet cases? Sent from a van down by the river Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thack82 Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 Maybe. I always told you guys if I ever built a big motor I'd go billet. I just hate the fact that they weigh 20lbs more than the stock cases. I've got to have that LT Frame I designed built to counteract that weight. "IF" I had that frame I would only pick up 2lbs with the billet cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thack82 Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 Billet cases? Sent from a van down by the river After I saw the Dyno Chart on that 421 Serval on Av-Gas you built that sealed the deal for me on what kind of fuel I was running. The curve that motor made on the dyno was the best 421 Serval curve I've ever seen, and almost 100hp on a play/ rec quad is awesome. that is one bad ass Serval! I can get BP 100LL 24hrs a day 365 days a year at Frankfort Air Port. The last time I bought 10 gallon it was $4.27 per gallon. Of course I put 1oz per gallon (127:1) of Klotz UPLON Fuel Lubricant in it before I even add my mixing oil at 32:1. The Av-Gas doesn't have any lube in it and the guys that build motors than run it told me to add a high quality upper cylinder lubricant to it as a precaution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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