sprinklerman Posted June 16, 2014 Report Share Posted June 16, 2014 Physics class and "degrees" aside, fact remains that guys turning out 2 and 3 times the hp of a woods bike run aluminum baskets and get lots of use...soo...yea. Sent from a van down by the river Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIM LUTZ Posted June 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2014 (edited) I've said all I'm saying on the steel basket. Tim confirmed benifits of the steel basket over a aluminum basket on a trail/XC Banshee. All the other comments are opinions, speculations, and theorys. The three guys running a steel baskets are the only ones that are stating facts. I don't really care if anybody ever buys or tries a steel basket, I have nothing to gain or loose. There's only two steel baskets left and after they are gone no more will be made. I'm tired of going over the same shit time and Ti e again and everything I say being picked apart. You and the others that keep prodding me have made up your mind, so it's pointless to keep replying. Maybe you should have just come out and said " DUDE....If you drag race or dune the steel basket SUCKS NUT". Edited June 16, 2014 by TIM LUTZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WINDYCITYJOHN400 Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 So I need to switch to some solid billet pistons and some small block chevy rods to add weight to my motor so it will have more power when I'm off the throttle and less as it comes up in RPM so the pipe hit on a 45HP motor doesn't scare me. That way I can maintain a more cconsistent power curve from a motor with bad bottom end and a peaky powerband. Is that about right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanYE west Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 You must also remember that any weight added to the clutch gear is 2.86 times easier to turn than any weight added to the crank do to the mechanical advantage of the primary/clutch gears. This is why I don't think it effected revving. Its added weight regardless of the ratio. It wont affect overall rpm.. it affects the rate of acceleration. If you noticed increased crank inertia and tractability... the rate of acceleration is 100% affected. you can't have your cake and eat it too. Its physics. Dont get me wrong. I understand what your point is and if your happy with it thats great. I just dont agree with trying to say that this is pure gains with no side affects. Any time rotational mass is added it takes torque away. This has been proven on the dyno for years and is fact based on laws of physics. Also, if your theory of "2.86 times easier to turn" is true.. then its also 2.86 times less affective at increasing crank inertia and tractability. So why even bother with the added wear and tear on the primary transhaft and bearing? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIM LUTZ Posted June 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 You all want to see a guy run the shit out of a 2 stroke thru the woods. This is the series I run on my banshee and Adam is stupid fast on this 250R. However he is a lot faster on a TRX450R 4 stroke in this type riding. . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b072S_jeoeM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thack82 Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 ^^^Is he serious?^^^ I thought we already covered this on page 2 of this thread! If rotational mass and weight is a concern a small amount of weight can be removed from the flywheel to compensate for the additional weight! At some point to much rotational mass can be removed and the engine will turn to high to fast and grenade. Trinity encountered this issue with their lightweight flywheel years ago. Then you have a clutch basket that never notches or gets sloppy for half the cost of a Hinson Billet Basket. How is that a bad thing? This dude just said he put a Hinson in his Banshee in 06 and he had to replace it this year, so obviously they do notch some over time. I'm talking about a basket that won't notch.... Ever. I can tell you my DL Stealth Lock-Up weighs more than a pound. Has anybody had any issues with transmission bearing or bushing failures do to added weight of a Lock-Up?..... No, I threw that junky bushing in the trash 3yrs ago and upgraded to a Bearing and Forged Kicker Gear, talking about reducing drag on the engine. How many of you guys beating the "engine drag" dead horse into a pile of dog food are actually running the the clutch basket bearing mod? How many times can you guys reword the same statement and ignore the answer you have been given? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIM LUTZ Posted June 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 It's a 250r I know. I said that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanYE west Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 ^^^Is he serious?^^^ I thought we already covered this on page 2 of this thread! If rotational mass and weight is a concern a small amount of weight can be removed from the flywheel to compensate for the additional weight! At some point to much rotational mass can be removed and the engine will turn to high to fast and grenade. Trinity encountered this issue with their lightweight flywheel years ago. Then you have a clutch basket that never notches or gets sloppy for half the cost of a Hinson Billet Basket. How is that a bad thing? This dude just said he put a Hinson in his Banshee in 06 and he had to replace it this year, so obviously they do notch some over time. I'm talking about a basket that won't notch.... Ever. I can tell you my DL Stealth Lock-Up weighs more than a pound. Has anybody had any issues with transmission bearing or bushing failures do to added weight of a Lock-Up?..... No, I threw that junky bushing in the trash 3yrs ago and upgraded to a Bearing and Forged Kicker Gear, talking about reducing drag on the engine. How many of you guys beating the "engine drag" dead horse into a pile of dog food are actually running the the clutch basket bearing mod? How many times can you guys reword the same statement and ignore the answer you have been given? you want a basket that dont notch.. buy a barnett. They've been out for years.. or.. better yet.. replace the cushions when their junk and use quality fibers.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coupelx Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 I looked at my stock inner hub and I didn't think there was enough material to machine out for the extra plate. Nasty habit you have, thinking and all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thack82 Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 Lol, I'll do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheerider11 Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 I'm sorry but your steel basket is gonna destroy bushings faster. There is no if ands or buts about it. I go through bushings every season. I ride all whooped out trails in 4-5 gear wide open. Te impact the shoots through my driveline is intense. I know this because I've broken more clutch components chasing the weakest link then I'd like to admit. The shock is absorbed by the weakest point. The bushings. I've had them all. I only run the mattoons that you need to freeze and still beat in with a hammer now. A Hinson spring loaded is on my list. They last the whole season, but are beat. No other ones. So I can't see how your now heavy rotating basket won't blow them out! Unless you ride like a girl. But you say your so rough on shit you need all billet forged alloy steel heat treated and x rayed. So how are the bushing holding up? The backing plates? I had a long discussion with cam,Hinson and mattoon about backing plate/bushing/bolt combos. Bushings contracting under load press out against backing plates. Blowing the bolt heads off. Again, I've dealt with this multiple times. Great you have all these degrees. I have 6 backing plates, 100s of bushings, broken baskets, broken gears that I can show you. That all relate back to the bushings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WINDYCITYJOHN400 Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 What notches baskets? It's NOT from pulling the clutch lever. It's the force of the fibers hitting the basket in the same place over and over. So the 100+HP alky drag bikes haven't got room for input on this topic? I PROMISE a drag bike at a dead stop with a motor at full rev and a typical hefty HQ pilot on board is going to put a hurting on something alot more than a mild woods build on dirt tires that spends most of it's time already in motion. If your notching a basket hard core with engine braking. ......maybe you need a slipper style clutch. Or pull the clutch lever sooner and use the brakes more. Just saying. I have no dog in this fight and don't really care. Just discussing...... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne_smith97 Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 Dude can ride. I got 45 minutes in. Lol at thirty he yells wooooooooo hey girl 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burke Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tfaith08 Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 A 4T is more susceptible to increased flywheel weight. Accounting for exhaust cam duration, only about 70-90 degrees out of 720 experiences combustion force. That's a ratio of an average of 1:8, combustion to other . A 2 stroke sees about 60-80 out of 360, so it has a much better ratio of about 1:4. 20% more weight added to a 2T rotating assembly will affect it much less than 20% added to a 4T. However, it is still there. A Banshee will see about 120-160 out of 360, so that's a ratio of 1:2.5ish. Dependability of any clutch will be largely dependent on setup, type of use, traction, weight, and TORQUE, not HP. Clutches and transmissions are rated for torque. That's how some of the 1000hp+ civics that make power at 9krpm are holding together with transmissions and clutches that only take 600 lb.ft. This is the same as on the cars we used to build. The 2JZ that we had made 456hp and would stand up to anything in the world while it was in the snow and on wet asphalt, but the first day out on dry pavement resulted in a fried clutch within minutes. After the owner stripped the car and added a lightweight flywheel with a clutch of similar quality, it stood up much better. I think it lasted for a few weeks IIRC. Now, he uses a heavier flywheel with a dual plate clutch that's good for 500lb.ft and it's taking all the abuse he can throw at it. His car spins less as well, but you can't call that more traction. A lack of acceleration will result in less tire spin, but that's not to be confused with traction. A pro class FD drift car has tires that have more traction than you'd ever imagine, but you can't say that a bicycle has more traction because it doesn't spin. I've never tried it, but I'd bet my Banshee that if you lined 2 Banshees up, one with 50hp and a heavy flywheel and one with 50+ and a lightweight flywheel and the latter was throttled to accelerate at the closest rate possible to the other, tire spin would be nearly identical. If I had the exact dimensions, I could calculate the exact loss in power. Since horsepower is a measurement of torque over time and torque is the measurement of twisting force in distance and weight, an increase in weight will absolutely reduce torque. The vector arm length, the radius from the axis of the twisting piece that is being measured for torque to the point of force, is a required figure for torque, hence the "foot" in lb.ft. The figure for force can be, much like the vector arm length, measured in any given applicable unit of measure. Pound is chosen because it is an easy figure for those who understand what's going on to comprehend. 1 lb.ft. = force required to move one pound in a circle at a distance of 1ft. from the source of power. Now, if your clutch assembly has say, 2lb, added so that the weight is centered at 3" from the axis (3" for easy figuring) and it is turning at a ratio of .35 the speed of the crank (source of torque), you should lose about 0.175 lb.ft, Again, that's very rough figuring, but it's there. The loss of acceleration and power is derived elsewhere. When something rotates, it is measured in rotational inertia, which is a derived figure. There is no such thing as rotational inertia, but it can be explained as the measurement of 2 forces and their effective relation to one another while an object is spinning. It's kind of like one kid has 9 cents and the other has 16 cents. Neither has 25cents, so no quarter exists, but it does in essence. Now, the rotational inertia is 2 things. It is nearly instantaneous velocity (since there is no such thing as true instantaneous velocity) accelerating forward while the object spins and the outward force, counteracted by tensile strength. Those 2, or more inaccurately stated, rotational inertia, eat up A LOT. Put a clutch basket of the exact design as I described above and you will lose more than .175 lb.ft., but that's what it calculates to with just that aspect. As for engineers, they tend to fixate on just one idea because they aren't allowed the latitude to focus on a project as a whole until they grow and gain experience. Engineers get a project like a clutch basket and try and calculate one thing until they've exhausted it. Then, they move on slightly and still cherish the thought put into the first calculations, so their every thought isn't it's own; it exists as a relation to the "pet-idea". Then, everything becomes centered around that. Once it fails and they learn why, they start to grow as an engineer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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