Vforce 3 vs v force 4

[Finch]

sounds legit

[01Twin]

4 post.. havent been on here much. didnt know couldnt post that sorry! I did alot of ebay sales untill I couldnt keep up with the overhead because of paypals rules they started holding funds for 2 weeks about 2 yrs ago so i stopped internet sales. Now I just sell local and thought I could expand a lil an help some people out with getting good deals. Didnt wanna offend anybody! I have a distributor it is legit but its cool. sorry for the misunderstanding!

[01Twin]

Its just going to be hard to sell when their are a ton on sponsors on here who already do that and have gained trust.

I understand. My buddy and I buy broken bikes (street or dirt) and fix them and resell them. So the reason for no markup is if we get $10,000 a yr in sales we go to the next discount bracket. Right now doin about $6-8000 a yr. So Im not worried about making a couple of dollars on a part when just the sale will help in the long run!

[WINDYCITYJOHN400]

Okay I see what your saying, so I have a stock engine no mods as of right now. Lets say I get the vforce 4 reeds a set toomey t5 pipes and perhaps 30mm mikuni carbs. That should make some power eh ?

I'd get the reeds.

I'd get a different pipe. (I prefer the FMF FATTY's)

Skip the carbs. They won't make any more power. your stockers can support up to 70HP. But DO get the TORS eliminator kit.

Save what you would have spent on carbs and get a timing plate and a cool head.

 

Great start for a bolt-on bike.

[tdod101]

I'd get the reeds.

I'd get a different pipe. (I prefer the FMF FATTY's)

Skip the carbs. They won't make any more power. your stockers can support up to 70HP. But DO get the TORS eliminator kit.

Save what you would have spent on carbs and get a timing plate and a cool head.

 

Great start for a bolt-on bike.

Thanks John, appreciate the input

[So Cal Suspension]

I understand. My buddy and I buy broken bikes (street or dirt) and fix them and resell them. So the reason for no markup is if we get $10,000 a yr in sales we go to the next discount bracket. Right now doin about $6-8000 a yr. So Im not worried about making a couple of dollars on a part when just the sale will help in the long run!

What else do you sell? I'm always looking for good deals.

[shanYE west]

. All the motors are seeing so much better low and mid power, that they require one size richer pilot jet to make them happy.

 

Sure this isn't from  decreased velocity at low rpm due to the increased area of the cage design?   pilot dont affect low and mid power.. It "meters the fuel required for the engines starting, idling and initial throttle opening. (0-1/8)"  Not being a negative nancy on the VF4's.. I just dont agree with it needing bigger pilot jet due to the increase in power in low and mid.   

[01Twin]

What else do you sell? I'm always looking for good deals.

PM sent

[WINDYCITYJOHN400]

Sure this isn't from  decreased velocity at low rpm due to the increased area of the cage design?   pilot dont affect low and mid power.. It "meters the fuel required for the engines starting, idling and initial throttle opening. (0-1/8)"  Not being a negative nancy on the VF4's.. I just dont agree with it needing bigger pilot jet due to the increase in power in low and mid.   

Well that pilot jet doesn't just stop flowing once you roll into the throttle. Once you get going it is part of your overall fuel mixture. It is a player in the overall amount of fuel your motor gets. When you lift off the gas and the carbs slam shut, it's your pilot that helps keep the motor fed. (and happy)

Now you can play with your needle and hope that you can get a sweet tune on your bottom end with that.....but I don't think your going to be to lucky if your pilot is wrong. Pilots and air screws are MAJOR players in getting a really GOOD tune on a bike. They roll they play is largely neglected, or misunderstood. But those fine adjustments are important.

 

Plus, don't over think it. The Carb is up stream of the reeds. So regardless of what is happening around the reed tips, the motor is still asking for the same amount of air with each intake pulse. So the signal strength isn't going to be weaker at the jets.

[shanYE west]

I will disagree with you on this one.. It will play a part in the transition to the needle circuit.. but it will have very little affect on the low mid.  The needle dia and length is your low and mid.   Sounds like your running a rich pilot to band aid the needle dia.

[WINDYCITYJOHN400]

Well then feel free to chime in with advice on all the different needles for all the different carb combo's for all the different builds. Or....if you had 3's in your motor and it was running good and then switched to 4's, just go up a pilot size. 

 

I have no problem with people who disagree.   We each have our way of getting things done. At least we can have a civil chat. 

[WINDYCITYJOHN400]

See figure 7 for a visual on my interpretation on the pilot jet and airscrew's rolls.

 

http://www.iwt.com.au/mikunicarb.htm

[shanYE west]

It doens't say anything different then what I've said.. The pilot has very little affect on the low and mid.     Its main task are idle and off idle.  Your link even says If the engine is running poorly just off of idle, the pilot jet screw can be turned in or out to change the air-fuel mixture.    It doesn't say.. if the bike is performing bad in the low mid to adjust the pilot/  The pilot should not be adjusted to affect the low and mid.  That is the job of the needle.

 

The engine creates vacuum and will draw a definite amount of air. This is based off parameters of the engine (bore/sroke). . With all other parts of the intake track being constant, by increasing the cross sectional area of the reed cage.. your decreasing the venturi effect therefore decreasing velocity and pressure on both sides of the cage.  It dont matter if the cage is down stream of the carb.  It affects the velocity and pressure  of the entire intake track.  Maybe someone with background in fluid dynamics can chime in.   But I think this is why your seeing a need for a bigger pilot jet.    The other part of the equation that dictates velocity through the intake is engine RPM. But since that is a variable governed by throttle position.  It would take longer to explain.  Please dont take this as trashin the vf4.    Civil chat  

 

This is a more precise jetting chart IMO.

 

Edit:  Lectrons might not apply.

 

[WINDYCITYJOHN400]

The info you highlighted is correct because for that section of engine opperation the pilot and airscrew are the only items in use.

But figure #7 clearly shows that the pilot and airscrew continue to contribute to the overall mixture. The pilots roll in the mixture doesn't really begin to tapper off until 1/2 way into the needles involvement. So at that point we are seeing the pilot effecting mixture well into 1/2 throttle. (easily described as low RPM and the transition into the mid.)

Addressing the reed topic - The motors actualy make more low end power with the 4's. So we know that invloves improved airflow. Regardless of velocity at the reed....the airflow at the carb is improved.

A quick visual - if your hosing off your quad, when you put your thumb over the end of the hose the velocity of the water increases at the hose tip. But the flow or amount of water is blocked. Move your thumb away and the amount of water increases even though the velocity drops.

The carb is upstream of all that. It's simply the faucet. Much the same as taking your thumb away from the hose allows the faucet to flow more. The same is true for airflow at the carb.

 

I agree with your edit as well. Lectrons are needle heavy in their design. My carb input is based on how Stock/Mikuni/PWK's work.

[shanYE west]

The info you highlighted is correct because for that section of engine opperation the pilot and airscrew are the only items in use.

But figure #7 clearly shows that the pilot and airscrew continue to contribute to the overall mixture. The pilots roll in the mixture doesn't really begin to tapper off until 1/2 way into the needles involvement. So at that point we are seeing the pilot effecting mixture well into 1/2 throttle. (easily described as low RPM and the transition into the mid.)

Addressing the reed topic - The motors actualy make more low end power with the 4's. So we know that invloves improved airflow. Regardless of velocity at the reed....the airflow at the carb is improved.

A quick visual - if your hosing off your quad, when you put your thumb over the end of the hose the velocity of the water increases at the hose tip. But the flow or amount of water is blocked. Move your thumb away and the amount of water increases even though the velocity drops.

The carb is upstream of all that. It's simply the faucet. Much the same as taking your thumb away from the hose allows the faucet to flow more. The same is true for airflow at the carb.

 

I agree with your edit as well. Lectrons are needle heavy in their design. My carb input is based on how Stock/Mikuni/PWK's work.

 

As far as the roll of the pilot jet. The image I posted clearly shows other wise. Sudco uses the same chart.

 

I'm not talking about velocity at the reed.  By increasing cross sectional area of reed cage you decreasing the venturi effect.  Its physics. Bernouli's principle. Your garden hose theory is not accurate since the motor is a vacuum and not a pump. You would have to reverse the flow of water in your hose with the same constants.  Do it this way and the velocity of the water coming into the hose is far greater then the velocity of it exiting the hose..   Its proven physics.

 

Enough from me on this subject.  I will leave it at I disagree with your theories.