Nightmare Posted December 16, 2012 Report Share Posted December 16, 2012 Well, right from Calvin's own words.......^^^^^^ (As volfan537240 so kindly quoted) As I have said MANY time over the years...."!0 mill Cheetahs (535's) can be real runners, but 4 mill and smaller ( 400-421-472-480-485-492) cheetahs are junk performance wise for their cc's" CAMATV is well known for having a few strong running P.V. motors, but I think his true skill is in the overall bike set-up. I have yet to see a truly strong running 4 mill cheetah put down a respectable dyno number compared to a similar sized cub. The strongest running 4 mill cheetah I've ever seen posted on ANY site, was Mailman's 492. On gas with OOF pipes he pulled a 105. (He had 3 different builders port that motor over the years, many different sets of domes and had over 200+ dyno passes to get it to that point!) Now I'm sure you can find dyno runs listed often of much smaller cubs in the 421 to 465 range touching numbers in that range and with less cc's. Nickisgod had FAST build his 485 Cheetah and it maxed out a 95HP and didn't make ANY lower torque numbers than my smaller 465 cub even though he had the powervlaves. (Same dyno, same day) i have 0 time on a dyno to extensively tune my bike and several people on here can probably speak to how good it runs... 392 btw. and camatv was the one that built it and to say his "true skill" is overall bike setup is funny because all he did was my motor; granted, he did my WHOLE motor because it was a basket case from trinity, maybe that is part of it too. i built/setup my own chassis, which i think works well, but i would give my bike credit due to the motor more than chassis setup . you have a grudge against pv motors because yours never ran while i am biased to them because mine runs amazing, so really, maybe both of our opinions should be taken with a grain of salt. i understand your point of view and can relate to your frustrations with cheetahs, but they can be built to run right. sure, they aren't for everyone, but it is funny how you discourage EVERYONE from them. you seem to have a boner about dyno's and i don't have much to say about them because i have never used a dyno with this motor, but i will say i would put my 392 cheetah up against any 421 cub out there (in the sand, not the dyno). not saying its faster than all, but it will run with many bigger bikes out there... Speaking of 392's, I bought finch's 392 and this thing will walk the dog on many of the 421's around here. Just sayin. Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted December 16, 2012 Report Share Posted December 16, 2012 who cares about Hp ive seen alot of lower numbers take out bigger high Hp bike. dyno doesnt win ya races just gives ya a big head... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
springer Posted December 16, 2012 Report Share Posted December 16, 2012 hp numbers are good for hq arguing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted December 16, 2012 Report Share Posted December 16, 2012 ahhh the good ole my dick is bigger then your dick argument Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CFH87 Posted December 16, 2012 Report Share Posted December 16, 2012 Lol yup! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vulvafan537240 Posted December 16, 2012 Report Share Posted December 16, 2012 Mine is actually pretty small but I can see it now that I've lost weight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WINDYCITYJOHN400 Posted December 16, 2012 Report Share Posted December 16, 2012 Speaking of 392's, I bought finch's 392 and this thing will walk the dog on many of the 421's around here. Just sayin. Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2 who cares about Hp ive seen alot of lower numbers take out bigger high Hp bike. dyno doesnt win ya races just gives ya a big head... hp numbers are good for hq arguing... Ok, relax...this is not part of what I was trying to say. We always go down this road so let me address this point of view. I will openly admit that I'm well aware of the reputation of the P.V. motors Cam has built. Cam's bike as well as yours do run very strong. But you need to understand that your P.V. motors are at the top of the pile when it comes to set-up. So when people say (sic) My 392 will beat many 421's........Well ask yourself if the 421's your so happy to beat are as well set-up as your motor. That's what I'm talking about. It's hard to really say your motor is strong, if your not sure if the other guy is actually weak. So I do like to reference the use of a dyno, simply to get a picture of how and where a motor makes it's power and how much. Every time I read someone post that "I have seen lower HP bikes take out bigger HP bikes" I just can't understand how that is a good argument. That doesn't mean that the dyno info means nothing......it only proves that bike set-up can be worth a lot. It's like your admitting that the bike with less power can still win. That doesn't mean dyno tuning a bike is all for ego. It means the guy with the higher HP bike needs to spend more time working on his chassis set-up, gearing choice, tire selection, etc. I'm also not bashing power valve motors in general. There are plenty of examples of other style P.V. motors out there that actually run better with P.V.'s in them, but the issue with the cheetah (As was covered by Calvin himself in volfan's quote) is about the size and shape of the intake port/reed on the cheetah. So (and this is the important part here) I'm NOT saying YOUR P.V. motor is weak or lame or unable to run......I'm saying that if you put as much time and talent into a Cub motor as Cam did on your Cheetah motor....the Cub will have more power across the board. (Low end Torque as well as Top end HP) The other part of the P.V. debate is about the motor being able to recover faster when you lift off the gas and get back into the throttle. (As many of the coal hill climbers out eats talk about.) I won't muddy the waters of this conversation by spending time on that because the OP was asking about 500Ft drags, so lifting off the throttle is irrelevant in this case. (But I don't see Tyler running P.V. motors on any of his hill climbers.......) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightmare Posted December 16, 2012 Report Share Posted December 16, 2012 Speaking of 392's, I bought finch's 392 and this thing will walk the dog on many of the 421's around here. Just sayin. Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2 who cares about Hp ive seen alot of lower numbers take out bigger high Hp bike. dyno doesnt win ya races just gives ya a big head... hp numbers are good for hq arguing... Ok, relax...this is not part of what I was trying to say. We always go down this road so let me address this point of view. I will openly admit that I'm well aware of the reputation of the P.V. motors Cam has built. Cam's bike as well as yours do run very strong. But you need to understand that your P.V. motors are at the top of the pile when it comes to set-up. So when people say (sic) My 392 will beat many 421's........Well ask yourself if the 421's your so happy to beat are as well set-up as your motor. That's what I'm talking about. It's hard to really say your motor is strong, if your not sure if the other guy is actually weak. So I do like to reference the use of a dyno, simply to get a picture of how and where a motor makes it's power and how much. Every time I read someone post that "I have seen lower HP bikes take out bigger HP bikes" I just can't understand how that is a good argument. That doesn't mean that the dyno info means nothing......it only proves that bike set-up can be worth a lot. It's like your admitting that the bike with less power can still win. That doesn't mean dyno tuning a bike is all for ego. It means the guy with the higher HP bike needs to spend more time working on his chassis set-up, gearing choice, tire selection, etc. I'm also not bashing power valve motors in general. There are plenty of examples of other style P.V. motors out there that actually run better with P.V.'s in them, but the issue with the cheetah (As was covered by Calvin himself in volfan's quote) is about the size and shape of the intake port/reed on the cheetah. So (and this is the important part here) I'm NOT saying YOUR P.V. motor is weak or lame or unable to run......I'm saying that if you put as much time and talent into a Cub motor as Cam did on your Cheetah motor....the Cub will have more power across the board. (Low end Torque as well as Top end HP) The other part of the P.V. debate is about the motor being able to recover faster when you lift off the gas and get back into the throttle. (As many of the coal hill climbers out eats talk about.) I won't muddy the waters of this conversation by spending time on that because the OP was asking about 500Ft drags, so lifting off the throttle is irrelevant in this case. (But I don't see Tyler running P.V. motors on any of his hill climbers.......) I understand what you're saying John, it's just that some out of these many 421's I can beat are put together by the same guy that does my motor work. I've had bad luck with pv motors so I tend to stay away from them. On the other hand I've seen them tear a track up pretty good. To each is own. Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CFH87 Posted December 16, 2012 Report Share Posted December 16, 2012 Look at that book he wrote! Lol go on windycity! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WINDYCITYJOHN400 Posted December 16, 2012 Report Share Posted December 16, 2012 Right and that's why dyno numbers are what I like to see because we don't know what kind of porting was done to each build.....does the motor have custom domes....is the pipe working well with the combo...etc. Who assembled the motor doesn't take into account what was done. Nor does it speak to the owners tuning ability.(and I'm not just talking about carb tuning. I'm talking about the total bike.) My wife's 65HP 370 Long rod bike with 28's and FMF's kicks the ass of this one 421 cub with PWK35's and T-5's. Built by same builder.....but I'm not calling her bike a cub killer. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
springer Posted December 16, 2012 Report Share Posted December 16, 2012 Right and that's why dyno numbers are what I like to see because we don't know what kind of porting was done to each build.....does the motor have custom domes....is the pipe working well with the combo...etc. Who assembled the motor doesn't take into account what was done. Nor does it speak to the owners tuning ability.(and I'm not just talking about carb tuning. I'm talking about the total bike.) My wife's 65HP 370 Long rod bike with 28's and FMF's kicks the ass of this one 421 cub with PWK35's and T-5's. Built by same builder.....but I'm not calling her bike a cub killer. LOL Ok, relax...this is not part of what I was trying to say. We always go down this road so let me address this point of view. I will openly admit that I'm well aware of the reputation of the P.V. motors Cam has built. Cam's bike as well as yours do run very strong. But you need to understand that your P.V. motors are at the top of the pile when it comes to set-up. So when people say (sic) My 392 will beat many 421's........Well ask yourself if the 421's your so happy to beat are as well set-up as your motor. That's what I'm talking about. It's hard to really say your motor is strong, if your not sure if the other guy is actually weak. So I do like to reference the use of a dyno, simply to get a picture of how and where a motor makes it's power and how much. Every time I read someone post that "I have seen lower HP bikes take out bigger HP bikes" I just can't understand how that is a good argument. That doesn't mean that the dyno info means nothing......it only proves that bike set-up can be worth a lot. It's like your admitting that the bike with less power can still win. That doesn't mean dyno tuning a bike is all for ego. It means the guy with the higher HP bike needs to spend more time working on his chassis set-up, gearing choice, tire selection, etc. I'm also not bashing power valve motors in general. There are plenty of examples of other style P.V. motors out there that actually run better with P.V.'s in them, but the issue with the cheetah (As was covered by Calvin himself in volfan's quote) is about the size and shape of the intake port/reed on the cheetah. So (and this is the important part here) I'm NOT saying YOUR P.V. motor is weak or lame or unable to run......I'm saying that if you put as much time and talent into a Cub motor as Cam did on your Cheetah motor....the Cub will have more power across the board. (Low end Torque as well as Top end HP) The other part of the P.V. debate is about the motor being able to recover faster when you lift off the gas and get back into the throttle. (As many of the coal hill climbers out eats talk about.) I won't muddy the waters of this conversation by spending time on that because the OP was asking about 500Ft drags, so lifting off the throttle is irrelevant in this case. (But I don't see Tyler running P.V. motors on any of his hill climbers.......) you're right... every cub i have ever raced probably just didn't have any time or talent into them. never thought of it like that. guess i'm the only one at the dunes that pays people to build their motor. thanks for clarifying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bansheemandan Posted December 16, 2012 Report Share Posted December 16, 2012 Which is better, ford or chevy? CHEVY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#1JUANstunna Posted December 16, 2012 Report Share Posted December 16, 2012 Vito's 421 FTW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WINDYCITYJOHN400 Posted December 16, 2012 Report Share Posted December 16, 2012 WOW.... Not what I said at all. So...do you beat EVERY 421 cub? Did your 392 beat Matt Shearer's 421? Did Cam's 480-535 beat Matt's 465.....no. Can't seam to disscuss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightmare Posted December 16, 2012 Report Share Posted December 16, 2012 Look at that book he wrote! Lol go on windycity! Aside from the dyno talk I actually find what he has to say helpful. Sometimes u gotta read the book to learn and that's one thing I'm here to do. Oh and buy parts:D Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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