Lock Out/Lock-Up Tuning

[SlowerThanYou]

As far as clutches and steels go, I personally like to stay with the same fibers always. Any tuning i do as far as steels go is strictly thicknes and finish based. (finish of the steels can be altered for diffrent outcomes) but are very minimal in my experiance. (I also get into cutting the O.D of the steels on the inner most of the stack up) Ill explain in further discussion.

In my experiance, I have good luck tuning fine increments with the pack stack-up height. With that being said to help you guys just a little bit, as the clutch pack ht. gets taller the pressure plate will come to rest at a shorted installed height as far as the spring goes. This change in the height increases the static/base weight that is applied to the clutches.

The air gap in the clutch can also be used to effect clutch tune-up,but i hope brian will shed his own light on all this before i say any more lol

 

This knowledge can be very helpful after the clutch starts to wear. I try to map out my springs in .005 increments,so as the clutch wears i can add base pressure to compensate for a taller spring installed height. This will help you be a more consistant racer come the final rounds of elimination..

 

Hope this gets us rolling a little bit....

 

Great thread...

 

Chris

WheelmanChassis

 

Are you running asphalt? this always happend to me when i first started clutch tuning.. its mostly caused by tire shake or a spin then hard hook condition.

the fix or one of them is in one of my post in the lock out tuning thread.. if you cant find it pm me..

 

Chris

WheelmanChassis

 

Would part of the fix be in the top qoute? I've never had the problem of breaking friction or steels. We did find small cracks starting on the steels, but changed them before breaking them.

[SlowerThanYou]

Trying to get caught up on the clutch pack side of lock out/lock-up tuning side.

 

While this is probably the boring side of clutch tuining, like everything else in the total quad set-up it all plays important factors.

 

While there are different things that play a factor. These things are what I find important in the clutch pack; Break-in, inspection & maintenance.

 

I'll start with clutch break-in. While I don't consider it a necesstity, I still do it for consistency reasons. We follow what works for Top Fuel Dragsters/funny cars. We apply the brakes & slide the clutch to the point of almost killing the motor. We do this 2 -3 times then let the clutch cool overnight. We consider the clutch ready to race after this procedure.

 

I'll cover inspection of the clutch pack, hopefully in the near future.

[SlowerThanYou]

I got 3 stock and 3 hd in and it rides the first 3 gears then after that it drops like its spinning i have 3 arms with bolts and a nut and the other 3 nothing on them. My question is should i add or subtract more weights. I race on 500ft dirt thanks

 

Between this post & your PMs I have a few ideas on your situation.

 

I really need more information to better pin point the problem, but I'll work with what info I have. It sure sounds like you are slipping the clutch down track. I weighed a bolt/nut & got 8.7 grams, but they all weigh different. It would help if we had your weight #s.

 

The best way to test this is with your track mph #s. What's your mph with only the 3 bolts & nuts? I'm thinking you should be running mid-high 90s for mph? I think you already have your problem figured out, not enough arm weight. Do not put on too much wieght, there's a fine balancing act going on with the set-up.

[SlowerThanYou]

Getting into the inspection phase of the steels.

 

The steel on the left has plenty of heat in it, but is still usable with inpection & conditioning. As you can see I did a little bit of conditioning at the top. This plate will be used after being measured, inspected for cracks & conditioned to a certain roughness. This plate shows the heat we used to have in our clutch pack, more than what we want!

 

The plate on the right is getting close to what we want. This is accomplished with modifications within the clutch assembly, using synthetics, coatings & different materials. Our most recent changes have our steels coming out with no color showing after 30-40 runs.

 

 

 

These are our aluminum plates that are cryo'd & hard coated. The one on the left has 10-20 runs on it, basically broken in. The right plate has around 150 runs on it. I still think I can get another 100 passes out of the right plate.

 

[Wheelman Chassis]

Would part of the fix be in the top qoute? I've never had the problem of breaking friction or steels. We did find small cracks starting on the steels, but changed them before breaking them.

 

 

Yes you have found the answer..lol

 

I have found that if my bike shutters the cluch, or shakes the tires real hard it will break the inner most clutch fibers. While this can normally be fixed with base pressure and other clutch adjustments, I have found if i trim .150 of the OD of the inner fiber and .100 off the second. This allows minor slipage in the first 2 plates eliminating that shutter in the clutch.. In doing this i have also find that i need to add just a little weight to the secondary arms for the desired launch.

 

As for our new talk of inspection. I have found the steels will often warp as they over heat, and once they do the clutch must be re-setup to continue. In my exp. i have the best luck with factory steels that i have re-surfaced. As off as it sounds i have the best results from steels that have been heated then re surfaced.

 

Brian.. from your exp how does inspection and mait. help us to performe better on race day?

[SlowerThanYou]

 

I have found that if my bike shutters the cluch, or shakes the tires real hard it will break the inner most clutch fibers. While this can normally be fixed with base pressure and other clutch adjustments, I have found if i trim .150 of the OD of the inner fiber and .100 off the second.

 

As for our new talk of inspection. I have found the steels will often warp as they over heat, and once they do the clutch must be re-setup to continue. In my exp. i have the best luck with factory steels that i have re-surfaced. As off as it sounds i have the best results from steels that have been heated then re surfaced.

 

Brian.. from your exp how does inspection and mait. help us to performe better on race day?

 

We have never broken a fiber or steel, but had cracks start on the steels. As for clutch chatter, I prefer to fix the problem with the primary weight or arm weight. It can also be fixed with tire pressure, launch rpm change and wheelie bar hieght to name a few. It's good to know your fix for the problem.

 

I agree & use heat cycled steels with proper inspection/conditioning.

 

Inspection & maintenance among other things leads to a good running race vehicle. The majority of maintenance problems can be solved at home & not at the track (preventive maintenance). We race other forms of motorsports & use what worked there for our quads. It's not just about the clutch, it applies to the overall race vehicle set-up!

[SlowerThanYou]

This post is getting ahead in the subject of clutch tuning. Actually I should have put before the inspection & maintenance portion.

 

Here's a Dyna DRL 3000 diagram for setting up a launch limiter. I've never used this set-up before, but know many that have. Our's is a built in feature of our Dyna ignition. I forgot you need a switch clutch lever to trigger the limiter. Hint, get the adjustable switch one. I does make a difference if you adjust it right. More on this later.

[SlowerThanYou]

What spring out there has the most installed pressure?

 

Hint, just a wag; 90 percent or better are using too much base pressure for drag racing.

[trickedcarbine]

I am not a true drag racer, but I do ice race and I have noticed huge improvements in my holeshots and out of corner speed with just minimal simple lock up and spring pressure adjustments. My bike is on a -2 and traction is never an issue which means I tend to flirt with a major bog. My remedy was to use a different spring combo from Barnett with 3 stiff & 3 light springs. This lets it slip out of the hole much easier and tends to be a little more forgiving if I'm a pussy on the throttle.

 

Few questions.

Have you tried an MSD launch limiter or only the Dyna? I have heard they can work with the oem cdi.

I would love to eliminate the human variable on launch and gain a little more consistency.

 

Being that I run the staggered spring pressures, is warpage on the plates something I should be worried about? I normally used to run all 6 springs the same but this 3 & 3 seems to feel really good.

 

You mention Cryo treatment, I have tried it on every aspect of the banshee motor and find it to be pretty effective on everything but fasteners or certain bits of hardware. It is definitely a good clutch life improver! But people tell me I'm nuts, maybe you can verify. Have you noticed an improved resistance to plate warpage and do you have enough passes to notice the springs feeling more consistsant?

Maybe as an oval racer I would notice the springs more so then the drag fellas.......

 

Lastly, you guys are resurfacing the plates.... Is that just with some steel wool, or a scotch pad on a wheel? Seems to me anything more coarse would be a little excessive and cause premature wear?

 

Chris, hope to pick your brain a touch out at Phil's, just be nice to my little TT bike haha

[SlowerThanYou]

Great questions, I should have time to answer them this weekend.

[Wheelman Chassis]

Ill answer all i can tricked no problem.... And to the surfacing question.. I do mine on a surface grinder with a med grit wheel. As far as the cryo treated steels , i don't use them but i do use steels that have been heated and refinished and see more consistency there.

[SlowerThanYou]

I am not a true drag racer, but I do ice race and I have noticed huge improvements in my holeshots and out of corner speed with just minimal simple lock up and spring pressure adjustments. My bike is on a -2 and traction is never an issue which means I tend to flirt with a major bog. My remedy was to use a different spring combo from Barnett with 3 stiff & 3 light springs. This lets it slip out of the hole much easier and tends to be a little more forgiving if I'm a pussy on the throttle.

 

Few questions.

Have you tried an MSD launch limiter or only the Dyna? I have heard they can work with the oem cdi.

I would love to eliminate the human variable on launch and gain a little more consistency.

 

Being that I run the staggered spring pressures, is warpage on the plates something I should be worried about? I normally used to run all 6 springs the same but this 3 & 3 seems to feel really good.

 

You mention Cryo treatment, I have tried it on every aspect of the banshee motor and find it to be pretty effective on everything but fasteners or certain bits of hardware. It is definitely a good clutch life improver! But people tell me I'm nuts, maybe you can verify. Have you noticed an improved resistance to plate warpage and do you have enough passes to notice the springs feeling more consistsant?

Maybe as an oval racer I would notice the springs more so then the drag fellas.......

 

Lastly, you guys are resurfacing the plates.... Is that just with some steel wool, or a scotch pad on a wheel? Seems to me anything more coarse would be a little excessive and cause premature wear?

 

Chris, hope to pick your brain a touch out at Phil's, just be nice to my little TT bike haha

 

Lets start with you 1st paragraph. You stated you are using 3 stiff & 3 light springs, are they both Barnett's?

 

I have not used either the MSD or Dyna with the stock cdi. We use the Dyna programable ignition with a built in launch limiter. people are using the Dyna DRL-300 with the Banshee cdi. I think it would be a nice addition to your program.

 

I would not worry about it too much at your spring pressure. It still should be checked with your clutch mainenance. IMO, you should baseline your current spring pressure. You might has some improvements with lower pressure yet, depending on your baseline.

 

We have ran cryo'd & non cryo'd steel plates. There's is nothing wrong with the cryo'd, but I would save your money. I agree with Wheelman & we prefer heat cycled steel plates with the proper finish. Now, for the aluminum plates we prefer to have them cryo'd & coated. It's pretty much needed for durability.

 

We use a 2" or 3" Roloc disc with different grades of scotch pad & sometimes different grades of sand paper Roloc disc. We have been pretty agressive some times with the finish. Most situations only need a fine or med scotch pad finish.

[SlowerThanYou]

what size spring tester is best 300lb or 700lb ?

 

I don't know what tester you are looking at? The one I use only goes to 100 lbs. The smallest increment is 2 lbs, but it's easy to figure out down to 1 lb.

[THE358BANSH]

I tried to explain the thoughts that have been thrown around in this thread to a local guy a while back and got the deer in the headlights look. What you guys are working with has been refined over years in the drag racing market. The only thing that I see that most are overlooking is when they spread weight out using two different weights on three arms is not considered a multistage setup. A multistage setup has the inner hub move in multiple steps to apply different pressures and is commonly used in a "slider" or "glide" clutch.

 

When spreading weight out on three arms each you effectively have the same plate load as six equal arms, except now you are unevenly loading the inner hub. If you can, it is always better to run six equal weights rather than two trios. Never run three pairs of weights on a six stand clutch, reason being goes back to even loading of the inner hub.

 

Lever size and geometry has a large affect on how the clutch operates also. If you really want to take your program to the next level, contact Mike Sullivan at Applied Physics. He writes clutch software and is a fantastic resource. Say you knocked the tires off on the gear change but the launch was nice. His software will let you know the relationship between base and counterweight to keep the same plate load at 6000rpm, but have 5% less plate load at 8800rpm to get through the gear change smoother. Red line is the new setup with 21 less grams of weight and 242 more pounds of spring pressure. Blue line is the original setup with 700 pounds of base and 104 grams. All this theory applies to quads, just on a smaller scale. All the numbers are for your specific clutch, those were just an example obviously.

 

I posted a picture of one of our clutches from the ProMod we race. Anyone notice any similarities? It was apart for service, inspection, and certification so the hat is off but I still think everyone will catch on...Evan

 

[SlowerThanYou]

I tried to explain the thoughts that have been thrown around in this thread to a local guy a while back and got the deer in the headlights look. What you guys are working with has been refined over years in the drag racing market. The only thing that I see that most are overlooking is when they spread weight out using two different weights on three arms is not considered a multistage setup. A multistage setup has the inner hub move in multiple steps to apply different pressures and is commonly used in a "slider" or "glide" clutch.

 

I posted a picture of one of our clutches from the ProMod we race. Anyone notice any similarities? It was apart for service, inspection, and certification so the hat is off but I still think everyone will catch on...Evan

 

 

This discussion has been going on for about 5 years here. It has been pretty entertaining, what most don't want to believe. This is the 1st thread that doesn't have any drama in it & people seem to be grasping the concepts.

 

My background is 1/4 mile asphalt drag racing. I have only dealt with torque converters & had to learn the clutch for the Banshee to run 1/4 mile. The majority of my clutch information came from this background & some other areas. That's one of the reasons I posted the Crower information at the beginning of this thread.

 

There are other areas in drag racing that we are applying to our quads. We have using some & still have more to test. It's amazing how much stuff transfers/works on our drag quad.

 

I think people are catching on to the basic clutch concepts.