muggzy Posted May 4, 2011 Report Share Posted May 4, 2011 OK, I posted in the Jetting and Exhaust forum with this issue http://bansheehq.com...pic=142754&st=0 and haven't got this solved yet. banshee_R1 suggested that I try this topic on this forum instead so what the hell, let's give it one more shot. Here's the summary: Getting my filter wet will cause a seemingly lean condition (engine RPMs runaway with no load) Mods are as stated in my sig. Did a leak-down test (7lbs for 7mins with a 20psi full-scale gage) and the needle movement was barely discernible. My compression is 145 on both with 65mm pistons and 22cc domes @ 900ft. My friend, with years of experience building and racing banshees (and servicing virtually every other quad out there) was trying to help me with this troubleshooting. 1) While running at idle, slides synced and bottomed to the idle screws, water was sprayed directly onto the filter with a spray bottle until the race condition starts. So this isn't slides sticking, no slide movement during this test means NO sticking slides and the ONLY thing getting wet here is the filter itself. 2) To see if there is an air leak that the leak-down wouldn't catch, brake cleaner was sprayed all over the intake side of the carbs looking for a leak. There was no change in the idle. 3) We took off the filter and tried covering the pro-flow adapter (manually choking the engine) and while it didn't seem as sensitive as it ought to when the intake was being covered, it did bog as if choked and DID NOT race. So this seems directly related to the water. Does anybody have anything to add to what was done diagnostically? Or think they can explain what is happening? Feel free to chime in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coupelx Posted May 4, 2011 Report Share Posted May 4, 2011 Most of us use the "View New Content" function so we will see your thread no matter where you post it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomadge Posted May 4, 2011 Report Share Posted May 4, 2011 Have had this happen to me outta the blue as well. Is it possible the water is being vaporized as its entering the carbs and therefor displaceing the octane of the fuel plus distrubting the mixture making it lean out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggzy Posted May 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2011 Most of us use the "View New Content" function so we will see your thread no matter where you post it. Yeah, I use it too but didn't know how many used the View New... I actually set an RSS feed and get it posted right to my browser. But figured what the hell, one more shot wouldn't hurt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coupelx Posted May 4, 2011 Report Share Posted May 4, 2011 Have had this happen to me outta the blue as well. Is it possible the water is being vaporized as its entering the carbs and therefor displaceing the octane of the fuel plus distrubting the mixture making it lean out? nothing in your post is even possible, so no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionroller Posted May 4, 2011 Report Share Posted May 4, 2011 nothing in your post is even possible, so no. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banshee_R1 Posted May 4, 2011 Report Share Posted May 4, 2011 nothing in your post is even possible, so no. Arrogance is everywhere around here! If your so dam smart why havent you posted anything that resembles an answer to this question? Forums are meant to help people, not for people to be pricks when someone has an idea even if its not right. and by the way like you said MOST people use the new content alert, that doesnt mean everyone, or that those who do read everything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggzy Posted May 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 Have had this happen to me outta the blue as well. Is it possible the water is being vaporized as its entering the carbs and therefor displaceing the octane of the fuel plus distrubting the mixture making it lean out? nothing in your post is even possible, so no. lol Coupe you obviously have nothing of any value to contribute to this problem and ironroller, you don't seem capable of contributing anything. Both of you, it's OK, you really don't have to know it all. The only thing either of you has contributed to is the bad rep that BHQ is getting all over the other forums. The fact is, boomadge is right; water is definitely atomizing when it hits the prefilter and clearly vaporizing at some point in the 2-stroke process since it's not being spit out of the exhaust. Every related function that I can come up with checks out (and and no one else has suggest any others). I have to assume at this point, that there is some sort of phenomena going on that no one on here can explain. The lean behavior has clearly been isolated to water (vapor?) being ingested through the carbs, we can be sure that the water is displacing air and the air-fuel mixture has to be getting richer. Air flow also has to be further restricted by the wet filter and we all agree that this should cause a rich condition. After that, something is happening that we just don't understand. Oh well, the next time I get my hands on another two stroke for a little while, you can bet your ass i'll be spraying water into the filter just to see what happens. In the mean-time, don't get 'em wet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coupelx Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 Coupe you obviously have nothing of any value to contribute to this problem and ironroller, you don't seem capable of contributing anything. Both of you, it's OK, you really don't have to know it all. The only thing either of you has contributed to is the bad rep that BHQ is getting all over the other forums. The fact is, boomadge is right; water is definitely atomizing when it hits the prefilter and clearly vaporizing at some point in the 2-stroke process since it's not being spit out of the exhaust. Every related function that I can come up with checks out (and and no one else has suggest any others). I have to assume at this point, that there is some sort of phenomena going on that no one on here can explain. The lean behavior has clearly been isolated to water (vapor?) being ingested through the carbs, we can be sure that the water is displacing air and the air-fuel mixture has to be getting richer. Air flow also has to be further restricted by the wet filter and we all agree that this should cause a rich condition. After that, something is happening that we just don't understand. Oh well, the next time I get my hands on another two stroke for a little while, you can bet your ass i'll be spraying water into the filter just to see what happens. In the mean-time, don't get 'em wet i did add to one of your other dozen fucking threads and you didnt like my post. hell i even took the time to explain it to you and still got shit on. I honestly have no idea why this is happening. i think its something with how the stock carbs are built. my banshee with keihin carbs just sputters and dies when the filter gets wet. My turbo car has water injection. when i purge the feed lines the water has little to no effect on the afr as indicated on the wideband.( less than .2 change may be unrelated) and rpms stay steady until the engine loads up and then it sputters and the rpms will drop. I am spraying through a 7GPH nozzle at 200psi. Arrogance is everywhere around here! If your so dam smart why havent you posted anything that resembles an answer to this question? Forums are meant to help people, not for people to be pricks when someone has an idea even if its not right. and by the way like you said MOST people use the new content alert, that doesnt mean everyone, or that those who do read everything arrogance? because i told him that something like "displacing octane" isnt possible? what have you added to this conversation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lincster Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 You are way too lean all the time with those mains and at that elevation. I have stock port and stock carbs and run 380 mains at Glamis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#1JUANstunna Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 You are way too lean all the time with those mains and at that elevation. I have stock port and stock carbs and run 380 mains at Glamis. I'm trying to figure out how he is too lean all the time with this set up. I run the same set up and mine isn't too lean at the same elevation. I check my plugs. Muggzy, I posted in your other thread too, but when my problem occurs the slide of the right carb actually hangs out. Kill it, flip the throttle, and the slide comes unstuck. It always has water droplets on the slide. I have even went as far as putting water repellant material in the lid and over the large snorkel hole. This doesn't help. I have always been told that this only occurs with the stock carbs. I have no idea where I was going with this but to share what occurs with my bike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggzy Posted May 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 (edited) i did add to one of your other dozen fucking threads and you didnt like my post. hell i even took the time to explain it to you and still got shit on. There were two other threads and they were getting so cluttered that summarizing what's been done to date made sense. My reply to your post wasn't "Shitting on you" I simply questioned your conclusion. As you say yourself: I honestly have no idea why this is happening. i think its something with how the stock carbs are built. my banshee with keihin carbs just sputters and dies when the filter gets wet. My turbo car has water injection. when i purge the feed lines the water has little to no effect on the afr as indicated on the wideband.( less than .2 change may be unrelated) and rpms stay steady until the engine loads up and then it sputters and the rpms will drop. I am spraying through a 7GPH nozzle at 200psi. It was your input regarding the water injection in your turbo that made me question what I was first speculating as an explanation and I said as much when I restarted the thread the first time (I think I even linked back to the original) People (inlcuding you) keep suggesting that it's the slides sticking so I carefully eliminated that as a potential problem (item 1 in the summary above) The slides were at bottom and throttle wasn't touched. I'm just trying to carry on this conversation with updates so we can all learn from it. Hopefully someone will come up with an idea (maybe even a wrong one) that will spark some understanding. Then I'll share it back on the thread (as I always do) so we can all learn from it. I'm trying to figure out how he is too lean all the time with this set up. I run the same set up and mine isn't too lean at the same elevation. I check my plugs. It's not lean. For one, I'm running for over two years on this rebuild and the compression is still 145psi on both sides. Second, when the power band hits, it hits HARD if anything's lean it would be the pilot circuit where this problem is showing up. And third, the plug chops confirm it's rich - ring at the base of the cone is a wide 2mm and dark. I'm at ~900ft (and up to possibly 2000ft max) I posted in your other thread too, but when my problem occurs the slide of the right carb actually hangs out. Kill it, flip the throttle, and the slide comes unstuck. It always has water droplets on the slide. I have even went as far as putting water repellant material in the lid and over the large snorkel hole. This doesn't help. I have always been told that this only occurs with the stock carbs. I have no idea where I was going with this but to share what occurs with my bike. I appreciate your input. Thanks. I did exactly the same thing and got the same results when I started looking at this problem. Maybe, under some circumstances my slides are sticking but the problem is reproduce-able when the slides are bottomed and the throttle isn't being touched. I have a Blaster with the 26mm Mikuni carb, I'm gonna try spraying that filter with water and see what it does. The only thing that'll tell me though is whether or not it's related to the specific bike or more something more common than that (like the carb?). Hell, it's somethin Edited May 5, 2011 by muggzy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coupelx Posted May 6, 2011 Report Share Posted May 6, 2011 i had a random thought today since i spend alot of time with nothing but my random thoughts in the truck. is the brake cleaner you are using flammable? alot of the new stuff isnt. i like to use soapy water to find leaks. an unlit propane torch works too in a pinch. edit: i try not to come off as arrogant or crabby, this 14hour work day shit is killing me. if i am not clear just ask and i will try to explain better. stuff that makes sense to me usually doesnt make sense to anyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banshee_R1 Posted May 6, 2011 Report Share Posted May 6, 2011 I had it here yesterday. I misted the filter like you did, but his will only do it when you hit the throttle. I pulled the filter (dual stage foam, I like k&n) the slides had no catches and were very responsive. Then i tried misting the airbox WITHOUT the filter on and couldnt get it to happen at all. weird shit... Anyway I cleaded and oiled his filter and put a lightweight oil on the slides and we are going to ride today. Ill let you know what happens. I also have another theory, what if the water that is on the filter is displacing air. To get through the filter with oil it would have to be a finer mist than a spray bottle. The air displeced is just enough to reduce the amount of fuel coming out of the main jet but not actually reduce the oxygen enough to balance out. so being less fuel and alot of air you creat a lean condition. also if water built up slightly on the air jet on the intake side of the carb the same thing would happen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banshee_R1 Posted May 6, 2011 Report Share Posted May 6, 2011 i had a random thought today since i spend alot of time with nothing but my random thoughts in the truck. is the brake cleaner you are using flammable? alot of the new stuff isnt. i like to use soapy water to find leaks. an unlit propane torch works too in a pinch. edit: i try not to come off as arrogant or crabby, this 14hour work day shit is killing me. if i am not clear just ask and i will try to explain better. stuff that makes sense to me usually doesnt make sense to anyone else. Ok man we can work with that. I work long hours too, it sucks! I tried starting fluid on my buddys and got nothin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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