BUILDER Posted March 23, 2011 Report Posted March 23, 2011 Not to add to the fire but I probably will lol. People talk all the time about usable horse power and most of us that are here in OR and WA are not full time drag racers. We love tree shots and hill climbs and we drag race about 15% of the time if that. So that being said if you can take a cub or a serval and make 80 plus hp and still have it start making power at a low rpm then you have a motor that works perfect for the kind of riding we like to do here. You port stock cylinders to make that kind of power and most of the time they are going to be really lacking on the bottom end and that is no fun for the kind of riding we are looking to do. That is the reason lots of people are going to either a serval or like myself playing with a regular cub to try to get good but not amazing hp numbers out of them but still keep as much low end power as we possibly can. The whole stock carb versus larger carb thing is funny to me becasue I have played with this also and I have had my own bike on Camerons dyno and pulled the stock carbs off and put larger ones on it and the results were just what he told me they would be. The hp numbers did not go up at all with larger carbs but I did start making power at a little lower rpm which made it a better setup for my kind of riding. The same goes with pipes. Running the pipe that works best for your kind of riding is what really matter unless you just want to see who can post the most hp on a dyno chart. That is one reason I always give Snop shit about saying T-5 pipes are junk. They are not junk and we all know that just becasue I dont like cpi pipes or pro circuits does not make them junk just means they are not the pipe I would run if I had a choice. In the end the dyno numbers really do not matter to me I like to see the numbers just like the next guy does and while I build my own motors and do all my own work I am not as into the details as a lot of the guys are on here but more about how I like the bike when I am riding it. ( I better clarify here Redline does all my porting and bore work) Dont want to catch shit for trying to take credit where I dont deserve it. You can prove to me that your pipe will make more hp on the dyno and I really dont care if I pull down in a tree shot with one pipe then go try another pipe and like the way one come out of the hole better than the other one then that is the pipe I am going to run no matter what your dyno number says. That being said I see where 05 is going with his motor and I totally understand it the only thing I had a problem with here is Snop is so anal about the details and so into the small numbers and talking about those numbers then he posts a dyno chart that most guys dont understand then starts catching shit about it. Just my thoughts on this one. Quote
Snopczynski Posted March 23, 2011 Report Posted March 23, 2011 A big thing to consider here is how much faster the pro circuits are going to make this bike accelerate, this was one of the huge things 05stroker was looking for. We wanted the power on tap right away, and it had to do it from down low all the way up. I believe we got the winning combination for that on the bike with the pc's and the smaller carbs. Details and testing on a loaded dyno are what give you the edge in the real world. Quote
BUILDER Posted March 23, 2011 Report Posted March 23, 2011 I need to call Cameron and see if he will email me the last dyno session we did with my stock ported cylinders. While they didnt make the number on top you did with this motor I am pretty sure I started making power at the same point and about the same curve with my 34 mill carbs and my T5's just had about 7 hp less on the top side. If thats the case adn I know I know cant compare dyno's not saying that but if your unloaded dyno is what we are going to go off of here then if I can make close to the same numbers with stock ported cylinders with t5's then that would lead us to believe you can make much better numbers with this cub and still pull hard off the bottom. I know the little details are what work in the real world but I can also tell much more out in the real world what my bike is doing that I can in a controlled enviroment on a dyno!!! Quote
RadarRacing Posted March 23, 2011 Report Posted March 23, 2011 This whole pro circuit debate is nuts to me. This is my opinion. Piss on dynos and their numbers and load or no load. The pro circuit pipes are going to perform poorly compared to other pipes in the real world with the serval. The hotter the exhaust gasses the higher rpm the motor will peak, the cooler the pipe the lower rpm range the motor will peak. I see no problems with those different dyno runs showing 500 rpm different peaks, one may have a .012 base gasket and one may have a .018 or .022 gasket and of course the higher cyl will peak higher and the one with HOTTER exhaust, more load or a fully warmed up HOT pipe will peak higher. I think the peak RPM tells the whole story. The cooler pipe LOOKS like a winner on the dyno but things change when the pipe gets up to operating/riding temperature. If you see a dyno run with the exact same pipe and the exact cylinder or base gasket the higher rpm one had hotter exhaust gasses. The pro circuits will look great in a pull or two on a dyno (and show a lower peak rpm if they are cold) but ride for a few minutes with a 200lb+ rider especially on sand and the power will fall off. The leaner or hotter they get the worse they will run. A small volume pipe may also like 5 or 6 degrees of timing to keep heat out of the pipe whereas the CPIs,Shearers can keep the timing in the 3 or 4 degree range and run their best because the pipe actually likes the hotter gasses to keep the velocity of the exhaust up. The reason the larger drag type pipes work on the serval is due to volume of the pipe and stinger diameter. NOT BECAUSE ITS A HIGH RPM PIPE. You are NOT putting a high rpm pipe on a low rpm motor and " Defeating the purpose of the serval" , you are putting a high volume pipe on a motor that can revv fairly high. Could someone build a pipe that works better than all the rest on the serval? More than likely yes. Quote
No Limit Powersports Posted March 23, 2011 Report Posted March 23, 2011 Here is my run with 34's vforce III and cpi's overlayed on top of your curve hope you dont mind. Another reputable builder did the cpi's and the shearers back to back and they were identical up the face but the shearers peaked about another 1000 higher and made another 6hp. I understand that differences in dynos day to day even can make a diff but its interesting to see diff setups. When talking about usable power which is what you guys sound like you want. We want the power to come on low as possible and carry it as high possible so we have the broadest power curve we can make. Quote
Snopczynski Posted March 23, 2011 Report Posted March 23, 2011 Andy, What was everything done to that bike when it was ran for that graph curve? Compression, octane, squish, flywheel weight, timing, axle, etc????????? Quote
BUILDER Posted March 23, 2011 Report Posted March 23, 2011 LOL Snop now you are looking for diffenances in the bikes becasue from that graph the bike Andy dynoed I would say that bike has way more usable power than any of the dyno runs you made which from the runs we made with my bike is just what I found with going to bigger carbs. The power started coming on way sooner than with the little carbs on it. Quote
05stroker Posted March 23, 2011 Author Report Posted March 23, 2011 I guess we will never know until one person puts all of these same setups on one bike, on the same dyno and runs all of them to the best potential. I'm completely happy with my bike the way it is right now. If somebody can run all these tests and prove to me that buying all new carbs, intakes, reeds and pipes is going to make a substantial difference I will throw in the towel and pony up. Until then, the pro circuit's came out better in our testing. Quote
Snopczynski Posted March 23, 2011 Report Posted March 23, 2011 LOL Snop now you are looking for diffenances in the bikes becasue from that graph the bike Andy dynoed I would say that bike has way more usable power than any of the dyno runs you made which from the runs we made with my bike is just what I found with going to bigger carbs. The power started coming on way sooner than with the little carbs on it. It is a good looking graph, I ask because those things effect it, and I wanted to see if he had anything done to it that we hadn't though of. The only thing to argue is the different dynos, different bikes, different day thing that has been repeated numerous times already. We have already seen small carb numbers, and big carb numbers on the same dyno, with the same pipe, with that other graph that McCoy has, and that still contradicts your theory. If you look at max rpm numbers between all three of the charts from different dynos with cpi's, they all have been different for max rpm, so comparing that curve rpm wise is a null and void point as far as where you place it on the graph. I dont really agree with your reasoning on the bigger carbs, I think you see a hp transition from midrange to up top, but not down low. The acceleration discussion is where loaded dyno runs with run times at the bottom instead or rpm comes in handy. I think your reasoning may apply more to a cub motor because of the higher durations, but not to a serval. I also want to make sure, if people are getting pro circuits for their bikes, or for testing. We got the best results with the 296 USFS approved silencers. they look liker this. Quote
beebs Posted March 23, 2011 Report Posted March 23, 2011 Here is my run with 34's vforce III and cpi's overlayed on top of your curve hope you dont mind. Another reputable builder did the cpi's and the shearers back to back and they were identical up the face but the shearers peaked about another 1000 higher and made another 6hp. I understand that differences in dynos day to day even can make a diff but its interesting to see diff setups. When talking about usable power which is what you guys sound like you want. We want the power to come on low as possible and carry it as high possible so we have the broadest power curve we can make. Andy whats the chance you could overlay the 4mill cub graph you had shown before to the comparison. Curious to see just how much stronger these setups are off the bottom to a 100hp cub! Quote
No Limit Powersports Posted March 23, 2011 Report Posted March 23, 2011 Andy, What was everything done to that bike when it was ran for that graph curve? Compression, octane, squish, flywheel weight, timing, axle, etc????????? Its all in that other post i started. Basic setup thought 140lbs compression, 91oct fuel, .045 squish stock flywheel, +3 timing, stock drivetrain I guess we will never know until one person puts all of these same setups on one bike, on the same dyno and runs all of them to the best potential. I'm completely happy with my bike the way it is right now. If somebody can run all these tests and prove to me that buying all new carbs, intakes, reeds and pipes is going to make a substantial difference I will throw in the towel and pony up. Until then, the pro circuit's came out better in our testing. I think its great that you guys did the testing i just dont think you gave the test the proper chance to see real results. CPI's or shearers are absolutely not going to like the boyseen reed or small carbs that you guys put on there and thats why i think that the pc came out on top in the test it likes the intake setup that didnt flow near as well. Andy whats the chance you could overlay the 4mill cub graph you had shown before to the comparison. Curious to see just how much stronger these setups are off the bottom to a 100hp cub! Its funny that you ask. As I have seen so many people say that cubs just dont have any bottom end most of the time because of either the way there built. Or most likely because when they do hit they hit so hard that nobody wants that in the trail anyway. Dont get me wrong a serval setup like i think a serval should be setup (pump gas) is a killer setup but a cub can make the power and then some. Here are 3 graphs, the lower one is the 421 serval, the other two are different motors not servals. Ill let everybody speculate for a little while what they are before i tell. mm2.pdf Quote
Fastassbanshee96 Posted March 23, 2011 Report Posted March 23, 2011 My guess is cub/cheeta and maybe a ported stock cylinder. What ever they are those are some pretty serious numbers. Quote
okbeast Posted March 23, 2011 Report Posted March 23, 2011 I want to see a Sniper vs. Shearer comparison on the Serval. Just for shits Quote
Snopczynski Posted March 23, 2011 Report Posted March 23, 2011 I think its great that you guys did the testing i just dont think you gave the test the proper chance to see real results. CPI's or shearers are absolutely not going to like the boyseen reed or small carbs that you guys put on there and thats why i think that the pc came out on top in the test it likes the intake setup that didnt flow near as well. What about McCoy's charts for Shearers between stock carbs and stock reedcages vs 38mm carbs and vf3's? Was that not a fair chance? Quote
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