michaud321 Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Hey, im planning on redoing my suspension over, I think im going with the fox podium in the rear Now im stuck between the fox float X with standard travel +3 arms OR fox float X Evol with long travel +3 arms My question is, Is a Long travel setup that much better for the extra money?? considering the float Evol are roughly 600$ more than the float X and the long travel arms are few hundred dollars more also thean the standard travel Ive seen alot of mixed feelings about the long travel on the banshees! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE358BANSH Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Plain and simple, yes it is worth it. You build the most power with the best parts, so why not give the same attention to your suspension? We need clear up a few things about the term "long travel". If you have a front suspension setup and "X" stroke length on the shock, it will have wheel travel based the shock travel. If you unbolt the current shock and replace it with one that has a stroke length of "X+1", you will gain wheel travel as a byproduct of the motion ratio. Adding more shaft stroke to the shock is the true long travel setup. It gives the shock a longer distance and therefore more time to displace the amount of force exerted on it. Some companies like to claim their product as long travel, when in reality all they do is add length to the arm or move the lower shock mount in. All that setup does is work the shock harder, more force into the same shock shaft distance and as a byproduct build copious amounts of heat and then fade. The big issue lies in the geometry of the Banshee front suspension unfortunately. When we add up to 3" of stroke to the shock, then multiply that with the motion ratio the wheel travel now cycles out of its sweet spot and bumpsteer becomes an issue. So in all reality, the best setup for a Banshee would be to limit the wheel travel to the portion where bumpsteer is small or no issue, and then have as much shock stroke length as possible to tune in the given wheel travel. My personal opinion, would be to take the shock package that offers the most manageability while taking a hit on wheel travel. The Float X is basically a compression, rebound, and a single air spring setup and not a bad unit at all. I personally like the Float X Evol model because it not only offers hi/lo speed compression and a standard rebound circuit, but also a "dual rate" air spring using the main chamber and the Evol chamber in tandem. What arm package brand wise were you looking at? Evan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaud321 Posted February 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 (edited) Thanks for going into details, i heard some ppl say that long travel on a banshee is a waste of time because of the geometry of the frame(longer travel causes bump steer) but ive seen other ppl say that a longer shock even tho its not a true long travel will still be better I understand alot more now, so like you said if i go with the longer float X evol i would adjust the shocks to limit travel a bit so im not in the bad bumpsteer zone,by doing that i should still have an advantage over running the float X with stock shock mount a arms,bumpsteer with longer shocks was what i was worried about but with the float x evol,if u can fix it,or make it better that seems like a better choice If i would go with the float X evol id get Laeger's long travel +3 a arms. since the float X are stock banshee length id probably go with the ASR MX pro +3 arms. I always thought that the float X evol would be better cause there 19.5" long and the Float X are stock length which is roughly 5" difference but from reading i was starting to think twice, after reading what you said its more clear now. Even for the extra money im leaning towards the float X evol with the LT a arms,mostly because the Float X is a stock length shock and that would limit you hopefully this makes sense,sorry if i repeated anything twice its kinda funny that you replyed cause after seeing your posts about redoing your front end,thats what really got me interested in the Fox Floats Edited February 25, 2011 by michaud321 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
So Cal Suspension Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 I'll just throw in my two cents. I think that if you are spending that kind of money on a front end, do it right. Contact Tim at Stellar, and get a set of his arms. They are the absolute best arms money can buy, hands down. Second, If you really want full control over your suspension, I would steer clear of air shocks all together. Just recently, I have dyno'd a set of Float X Evols, and at 25 minutes, 80CPM, they faded 28% under 77*C. By comparison, an Axis remote reservoir shock on the same machine; same ambient temperature, run at 80CPM; faded <3% after 25 minutes, at 63*C. That's a huge difference when you're talking low duty numbers such as 80CPM, and only 25 minutes. Air shocks build up tremendous heat, and don't dissipate it efficiently. I don't recommend the floats on a heavy machine, such as a Banshee. You will probably be happy with the way they ride, but a set of Elka or Axis shocks will last MUCH longer between services, and ultimately give you more control over the way the shock reacts. I won't go into detail about long travel vs standard travel, but by putting a longer shock on a bike, you'll get more down travel but you'll lose the same amount of up travel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE358BANSH Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 (edited) So you were stroking the shock with the air chambers pressurized? Kind of a biased test don't you think? Edited February 27, 2011 by THE358BANSH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
So Cal Suspension Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 So you were stroking the shock with the air chambers pressurized? Kind of a biased test don't you think? Of course they were pressurized... It wouldn't make any sense to dyno them flat... Both sets of shock were dyno'd ready to run. Completely unbiased. Side by side, both shocks ready to run. Don't get me wrong, I love fox's products, and sell them on a daily basis. I'm just saying there are more efficient options out there other than floats, in my professional opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DallasGDub Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 Great I went from stock, to YFZ, to Works, to Elkas, to Fox Evol. Now I have to sell these for Axis? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE358BANSH Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 Of course they were pressurized... It wouldn't make any sense to dyno them flat... Both sets of shock were dyno'd ready to run. Completely unbiased. Side by side, both shocks ready to run. Don't get me wrong, I love fox's products, and sell them on a daily basis. I'm just saying there are more efficient options out there other than floats, in my professional opinion. I just stated it was slightly biased because you are working the Foxs double time by not only the heat built by the dyno, but also letting them heat soak from the chambers with no airlfow to dissipate while on the dyno. It seems like there were tons of variables, and performing tests without multiple control factors lead to a biased test... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanYE west Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 How would it be biased if both shocks were setup ready to run.. same day... same conditions for both sets.. Seems like a fair test to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
So Cal Suspension Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 How would it be biased if both shocks were setup ready to run.. same day... same conditions for both sets.. Seems like a fair test to me. Exactly, Shayne. Both shocks were tested under the exact same conditions. There is no fairer way to test them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
So Cal Suspension Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 Great I went from stock, to YFZ, to Works, to Elkas, to Fox Evol. Now I have to sell these for Axis? Haha, Gary. You definitely would be continuing your climb to the best shocks on the market, if you bought Axis next. =) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE358BANSH Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 How would it be biased if both shocks were setup ready to run.. same day... same conditions for both sets.. Seems like a fair test to me. When you introduce a spring whether air or coil onto a shock that is on a dyno, you introduce many more variables. The main point of stroking the shock is to find force vs shaft velocity and/or position while being stroked. A spring will vary the results on both a peak velocity graph or continuous velocity style graph. Depending on where the crossovers are set and spring rates, or the pressures of the main/bottoming chamber, too many variables are introduced to have meaningful results. This is the reason why there are shock dynos, and then there are spring rating machines. That is what I can contribute to the conversation, hopefully it helps people learn a little bit more about the tools that help us do our jobs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DallasGDub Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 Axis has air shocks as well. Any reviews on those? I love my Evol's. Just for the simple fact I can set it up myself for any type of riding I do in a matter of minutes. If it feels a little stiff at high speeds on the dunes, pssssss, and I am good to go. If I am bottoming out at low speeds on the trails, break out the right pump and add a little air, then I am set. Not to mention a new set of Axis are a little out of my price range. Hard to find a nice set of Axis that do not need some work. Suckers are pricey. If I was heavy into pro MX or XC, I would look more into some Axis, Race Techs, Pep zps, ext... All high quality stuff. Right now I just go with whatever I find a deal on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
So Cal Suspension Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 Axis has air shocks as well. Any reviews on those? I love my Evol's. Just for the simple fact I can set it up myself for any type of riding I do in a matter of minutes. If it feels a little stiff at high speeds on the dunes, pssssss, and I am good to go. If I am bottoming out at low speeds on the trails, break out the right pump and add a little air, then I am set. Not to mention a new set of Axis are a little out of my price range. Hard to find a nice set of Axis that do not need some work. Suckers are pricey. If I was heavy into pro MX or XC, I would look more into some Axis, Race Techs, Pep zps, ext... All high quality stuff. Right now I just go with whatever I find a deal on. Nothing really on the pro-airs yet. They released them in mid-08, so they're probably all still working perfectly... Yeah, without a doubt I bet most people would be happy with floats. I know I would. But when you're talking the baddest set of shocks available, it goes to Axis and Elka. They are pretty much side by side. As far as dynoing a shock with the spring on, I suppose if you didn't have a dyno that could handle it the increased force of a spring, you would get skewed results. I use a Roehrig 5Vs dyno, with the spring rater attachment. Killer piece of equipment by the way. I've got about two years and about 1500 dynos on this one and it's absolutely perfect. She was just calibrated at the University of Michigan in July, 2010. No adjustments were made. Upgraded from my 3VS and never looked back. Anyhooters. Since both shocks were dyno'd with "springs", again, the results are still fair. I was merely quoting fade and heat generated, nothing relating to the PROPER use of the dyno... lol. In those aspects everything is 100% equal. I always test my shocks ready to bolt on the bike, coilover, airshock, it doesn't matter. I typically don't dyno for valving on ATV shocks, I dyno to test my particular oil blend for fade, and fun, really. Suprisingly, Works shocks develop the least amount of heat of any other shock brand that I have tested for ATV's. The only brand that I can recall that I haven't tested is TCS, frankly because I don't care... They're out of business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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