The ultimate showdown cool head vs shaved stock head

[okbeast]

Apparently you are just looking for ANYTHING to attack.

You see some red writing on a graph that you really don't know squat about, and you try to attack it.

You're acting like a girl.

Rick is the most conservative builder I know and he would never do something to a customers engine that would cause him to doubt it reliability for one second.

 

It fucking says on teh graph what would happen if it was too high or too low. You don't know shit about it either. You're a fucking self-porting God who's got the banshee figured out. But you have this cool head vs. stock head thread Awesoooooome.

[arfountain]

I just wish someone could explain why I just wasted 15 minutes out of my life to read this dumb thread.

[hercalmighty]

Slo, from the couple builders I have talked to and what I have read a good safe squish should be between .040 and .045. Under .038 you really need to know that all your other parts are in damn good shape if you expect your RPMs to be on the higher side. You really can't measure the true amount of streth in all your parts at high rpms. So to keep safe you should try to stay above .040. So if you have a stock head and you want more compression then what shaving down to .040 can get you, you should have the head rechambered. If your motor is stock or a very mild port meant for more of a low to mild range then yeah you could maybe go a little tighter with for squish.

 

Here is my run down:

Stock motor looking for a compression bump, shave the head down to .040 squish

Stock motor looking to run race fuel, rechamber or cool head

Ported motor looking to run either pump or race fuel, rechambered or cool head

(I think if your spending the money for a port job at least have the builder rechamber your head to his specs)

If you have an idea your going to possible be changing setups a few time go cool head.

 

It seems that the cooling between the two is pretty close with some saying the cool head helps and some saying it doesn't.

The hp difference between cool head domes and a rechambered head are about the same.

So I think a lot of it comes down to, are you going to stick with one setup or do you have a feeling your going to be doing some upgrades and changes that will require head changes.

[dajogejr]

Don't be upset Daj. We're all wrong sometimes.

And that poll don't mean anything when the voters are ignorant as they come.

I mean look who america voted into office....

 

I'm far from upset. And I admit when I'm wrong, when I'm actually wrong. It happens.

It seems being wrong...and being wrong in YOUR mind are two totally different things.

 

So...I humbly admit I am wrong in your mind. I will seek all my information going forward with all my builds through you.

I'd appreciate if you could run my configurations through your extensive contact list and add in your own personal experience...and let me know what you come up with.

My accomplishments at the track? They mean nothing. I'm sure with your knowledge and experience I could easily shave a full second off my 300 foot times, make all those guys who don't have your knowledge (you know, all the top builders in the country) sorry they didn't take your word as gold either.

 

I will personally tell them they are wasting their time...they could just consult you for all the answers.

 

We should all be so lucky. I will furthermore inform all the voters (or the majority of them, over 70% last I checked on this thread) they are misguided and wrong. I will try to convince them you are the light at the end of the tunnel, you hold all the knowledge...and questioning your reasoning and seasoned experience would just be wrong.

 

On a final note...I fully agree with your last sentence about who America voted into office.

 

Maybe he could come to you for advice too. I bet you're just as seasoned at government as you are engine building/tuning.

 

 

SLORYDER for President 2012...you heard it here first.

[brugal]

it comes down to, are you going to stick with one setup or do you have a feeling your going to be doing some upgrades and changes that will require head changes.

 

Thats the bottom line.

 

Ive used both ,I went back to a stock head (rechambered) because my banshee is a sleeper with a 5mm twister.

I noticed a 2 -3 degree temperature difference with the coolhead, which isnt much

The only real advantage to a coolhead is the interchangeable domes.

 

Oh, and the bling factor.

[SLORYDER]

Slo, from the couple builders I have talked to and what I have read a good safe squish should be between .040 and .045. Under .038 you really need to know that all your other parts are in damn good shape if you expect your RPMs to be on the higher side. You really can't measure the true amount of streth in all your parts at high rpms. So to keep safe you should try to stay above .040. So if you have a stock head and you want more compression then what shaving down to .040 can get you, you should have the head rechambered. If your motor is stock or a very mild port meant for more of a low to mild range then yeah you could maybe go a little tighter with for squish.

 

Here is my run down:

Stock motor looking for a compression bump, shave the head down to .040 squish

Stock motor looking to run race fuel, rechamber or cool head

Ported motor looking to run either pump or race fuel, rechambered or cool head

(I think if your spending the money for a port job at least have the builder rechamber your head to his specs)

If you have an idea your going to possible be changing setups a few time go cool head.

 

It seems that the cooling between the two is pretty close with some saying the cool head helps and some saying it doesn't.

The hp difference between cool head domes and a rechambered head are about the same.

So I think a lot of it comes down to, are you going to stick with one setup or do you have a feeling your going to be doing some upgrades and changes that will require head changes.

 

Some believe .040" is a safe number, some believe .035". I've even heard of .030" on a banshee engine.

From what I gather, banshees are just tighter engines than most. On a 250R for instance, I believe .040" is around the absolute minimum. Banshee it is .030".

Basically everyone that has milled their head .030", has knocked their squish down to around .038", and I have never heard of any engine destruction. And I know for sure at least one of them had an aggressive port job.

 

I tend to agree with most of what you said though, and I appreciate your civil approach.

 

Stock or ported other than full drag pump gas shave .025" - .030". If it were me I'd go .025" at my elevation

Mildly ported race fuel or methanol rechamber or cool head.

Drag ported racefuel or methanol rechambered head or cool head.

 

Which still goes back to what I've said from the get go. I believe that less than 20% of banshee owners will ever NEED a cool head.

[SLORYDER]

I'm far from upset. And I admit when I'm wrong, when I'm actually wrong. It happens.

It seems being wrong...and being wrong in YOUR mind are two totally different things.

 

So...I humbly admit I am wrong in your mind. I will seek all my information going forward with all my builds through you.

I'd appreciate if you could run my configurations through your extensive contact list and add in your own personal experience...and let me know what you come up with.

My accomplishments at the track? They mean nothing. I'm sure with your knowledge and experience I could easily shave a full second off my 300 foot times, make all those guys who don't have your knowledge (you know, all the top builders in the country) sorry they didn't take your word as gold either.

 

I will personally tell them they are wasting their time...they could just consult you for all the answers.

 

We should all be so lucky. I will furthermore inform all the voters (or the majority of them, over 70% last I checked on this thread) they are misguided and wrong. I will try to convince them you are the light at the end of the tunnel, you hold all the knowledge...and questioning your reasoning and seasoned experience would just be wrong.

 

On a final note...I fully agree with your last sentence about who America voted into office.

 

Maybe he could come to you for advice too. I bet you're just as seasoned at government as you are engine building/tuning.

 

 

SLORYDER for President 2012...you heard it here first.

 

I love you too.

 

Answer me one thing though.

Where is YOUR extensive research and proof that states why .035" squish will instantly destroy your engine?

[blowit]

 

 

Can we PLEASE cut the drama cord already and let this sucker drop to the bottom??????????????

[dajogejr]

Because I've made the mistakes you are preaching about...

When I was in high school and didn't have the money we'd be in shop class F'in with things instead of working on lawn mowers and weed eaters.

 

We'd go over to the machine shop and have them cut stuff up for us.

What else was there to do in HS?

 

We've taken stock heads and mill off .010 at first, then .020...and so on.

 

And then we'd blow 'em up. Mind you...this was on stockers with pipes and our own clean up/hack port jobs, not on professionally ported motors, strokers, aftermarket cylindes. This was before overrides and lockups...and before the mainstream cast/billet cylinders. If you wanted a 4 mil, you ran a spacer plate or cut domes....or a 7 mil or 10 mil. There weren't cylinders cast for this kidna thing.

 

We didn't know anything about rechambering heads, we just knew if you took X amount off you'd get more horsepower from the added compression. We'd grind our own OEM timing plates and guess.

I was always pretty good with carbs...so I'd make sure they were tuned right. I'd be lying if I said they were perfect every time...but what setup is?

 

We'd have different fuels and oils at our disposal (thanks to local vendors/shops for sponsoring the small engine program we had).

 

We ran Turbo Blue back then, which I believe is 108 or 110 octane.

Once we got past .025 they didn't last long. We'd bore 'em, replace the factory cast pistons with Wiseco forged...and do it again (thinking hey. the motor was worn...they were cast pistons. We're used to running forged pistons in our cars for NOS...so they must be better for a reason right? So we'd put forged in...and break them again.

 

This was years ago, before digital cameras, Internet, etc. So obviously I have no picture proof, etc. Just my memories...

 

And...

All I did was have the machine shop at school lop the surface. NO chambering, etc. So, essentially...doing exactly what you said you've done...and we'd break pistons. You could actually see the ring on the piston where it came to close and hit the head...and the cranks were fine, by the way.

 

I had no concept of chambering heads back then, no knowledge of dome design, rise, deck height, msv, etc.

I just knew with a little bubble gum, duct tape, WD40 and elbow grease we could have some fun...and we broke shit more than we probably rode it.

 

Is that good enough, or should I ask Macdizzy if they concur?

[shanYE west]

I love you too.

 

Answer me one thing though.

Where is YOUR extensive research and proof that states why .035" squish will instantly destroy your engine?

 

 

nothin is instant.. But that file you posted is some pretty good proof. Look at the MSV, and thats only a .038 squish. I'm by no means a expert on dome design. When squish gets tighter.. your MSV increases along wit heat. So if you mill the stock head with out rechambering.. the MSV COULD (depending how much was taking off) be too high and cause deto and lead to piston failure. Now.. you can run a tighter squish if the band and angle have been adjusted to compensate. But were not talking a rechambered dome.. we're taling a stock dome design with increased compression.. Some dome designs are more prone to engine failure then others.. Some can get by bandaiding the problem. Orcourse at the exspense of HP. Again.. i'm no expert but.. take it for what it is.. My opinion.

[SLORYDER]

Because I've made the mistakes you are preaching about...

When I was in high school and didn't have the money we'd be in shop class F'in with things instead of working on lawn mowers and weed eaters.

 

We'd go over to the machine shop and have them cut stuff up for us.

What else was there to do in HS?

 

We've taken stock heads and mill off .010 at first, then .020...and so on.

 

And then we'd blow 'em up. Mind you...this was on stockers with pipes and our own clean up/hack port jobs, not on professionally ported motors, strokers, aftermarket cylindes. This was before overrides and lockups...and before the mainstream cast/billet cylinders. If you wanted a 4 mil, you ran a spacer plate or cut domes....or a 7 mil or 10 mil. There weren't cylinders cast for this kidna thing.

 

We didn't know anything about rechambering heads, we just knew if you took X amount off you'd get more horsepower from the added compression. We'd grind our own OEM timing plates and guess.

I was always pretty good with carbs...so I'd make sure they were tuned right. I'd be lying if I said they were perfect every time...but what setup is?

 

We'd have different fuels and oils at our disposal (thanks to local vendors/shops for sponsoring the small engine program we had).

 

We ran Turbo Blue back then, which I believe is 108 or 110 octane.

Once we got past .025 they didn't last long. We'd bore 'em, replace the factory cast pistons with Wiseco forged...and do it again (thinking hey. the motor was worn...they were cast pistons. We're used to running forged pistons in our cars for NOS...so they must be better for a reason right? So we'd put forged in...and break them again.

 

This was years ago, before digital cameras, Internet, etc. So obviously I have no picture proof, etc. Just my memories...

 

And...

All I did was have the machine shop at school lop the surface. NO chambering, etc. So, essentially...doing exactly what you said you've done...and we'd break pistons. You could actually see the ring on the piston where it came to close and hit the head...and the cranks were fine, by the way.

 

I had no concept of chambering heads back then, no knowledge of dome design, rise, deck height, msv, etc.

I just knew with a little bubble gum, duct tape, WD40 and elbow grease we could have some fun...and we broke shit more than we probably rode it.

 

Is that good enough, or should I ask Macdizzy if they concur?

 

Seriously this is the first I hear of having problems from milling more than .025". Contact namely.

I mean, you were in high school. You had high schoolers milling your head.

Do you think that perhaps a mistake was made somewhere.

You say the ring hit the head? The ring should be no less than .100" from the head at tdc. How did the ring hit the head? Something was out of wack.

[SLORYDER]

nothin is instant.. But that file you posted is some pretty good proof. Look at the MSV, and thats only a .038 squish. I'm by no means a expert on dome design. When squish gets tighter.. your MSV increases along wit heat. So if you mill the stock head with out rechambering.. the MSV COULD (depending how much was taking off) be too high and cause deto and lead to piston failure. Now.. you can run a tighter squish if the band and angle have been adjusted to compensate. But were not talking a rechambered dome.. we're taling a stock dome design with increased compression.. Some dome designs are more prone to engine failure then others.. Some can get by bandaiding the problem. Orcourse at the exspense of HP. Again.. i'm no expert but.. take it for what it is.. My opinion.

 

From what I gather from that file, you are at the safe limit on 90 octane.15 to 30. It is at 30.7, which is juuuuust beyong the absolute safe limit. At 90 octane.

Rick has been fooling with this software for years and years. I have complete faith in his word. If he says .035" is fine, .030" on a tight engine I believe him. Like I said, people go down to .038" on the stock head all the time and never have problems.

Edited August 5, 2010 by SLORYDER

[dajogejr]

Seriously this is the first I hear of having problems from milling more than .025". Contact namely.

I mean, you were in high school. You had high schoolers milling your head.

Do you think that perhaps a mistake was made somewhere.

You say the ring hit the head? The ring should be no less than .100" from the head at tdc. How did the ring hit the head? Something was out of wack.

 

We had experienced teachers and instructors/aides with years and years in the business watching over them...I'm pretty sure those old timers knew how to run a machine. Some of the instructors actually cut the parts because they just thought it was cool and different than the normal jobs/requests.

You make is sound so simple..so anyone can just mill of .035...right?

 

I didn't mean piston ring, I meant you could see a "ring" on the dome of the piston where it hit.

If you can see the piston ring hitting the dome...I'd say you have other problems...like crown missing.

 

Maybe we should've looked you up 15 years or so ago...you were probably a leader in the industry then, too...

[shanYE west]

From what I gather from that file, you are at the safe limit on 90 octane.15 to 30. It is at 30.7, which is juuuuust beyong the absolute safe limit. At 90 octane.

Rick has been fooling with this software for years and years. I have complete faith in his word. If he says .035" is fine, .030" on a tight engine I believe him. Like I said, people go down to .038" on the stock head all the time and never have problems.

 

 

Like I said.. there is ways to bandaid it and cover up the problem.. at the exspense of HP...

[So Cal Suspension]

/ WATCHING TOPIC.