The ultimate showdown cool head vs shaved stock head

[SLORYDER]

I've seen gains by as much as 10% just by switching to a custom dome design without adding compression.

A custom chamber can taylor the power to suit your style of riding.. wich is huge!!

 

Please give us the specs of the motor you are talking about.

[shanYE west]

A cool head on pump gas will get you roughly 3-5 horsepower. So will a stock milled head.

 

It's not difficult to understand.

 

 

a cool head on pump gas with who's and what domes????

 

also.. is that a milled and rechambered head??? or just milled.? also.. if it was rechambered.. who rechambered it?

[blowit]

I think one thing worth noting in this rant is when comparing heads, are we talking

 

A, billet head with off the shelf domes

B, billet head with custom cut domes for the specific engine setup

C, Decked stock head where the mating surface is simply milled down

D, Decked/rechambered stock head where the mating surface AND the chamber are machining for a specific engine setup.

 

 

 

I think there is still some confusion in all the posts as to "what is what". We claim that our stock modded heads are better than any off the shelf billet head simply because we custom tailor the head for each engine. Obviously when comparing to custom machined domes, there would not be too much difference other than we have some limitations with the stock heads.

 

Regarding stock head decking only, that should be reserved for people with a"very restrictive anal port". Reason is you are leaving HP on the table as well as inviting detonation and excessive heat due to a STILL inefficient flame front... We will not do or or recommend it but will admit that it will improve performance to a degree. This should, however, NOT be put in the same ball field as a proper decked/rechambered stock head.

 

Regarding engine operating temps, there is just not bit of real proof that a billet head truly makes an engine much cooler. It does not take too much thermodynamic math to prove that adding a small amount of coolant volume (water) to the cooling system will indeed take longer to heat thus heating up SLOWER, BUT, once equilibrium temps are achieved, there would not be much of a difference because you are still governed by the heat exchanging properties of the radiator.

 

NOW, if you compare a stock decked head to an "off the shelf" coolhead as many run, the coolhead dome is already refined for better combustion where as the decked stocker would still have a shit design which would lead to "slower" flame front propagation and increased head heating. Simply improving the chamber can actually "reduce" perceived operating temps due to the faster burn rate. In short, if you compared two engines that make 50HP and one is 30% eff and the other is 50% eff, which do you think makes more heat as a by product???

 

Now I am not going to defend stock heads tooth and nail because there simply are some things you cannot do with them BUT I think comparing apples to apples is important. Matter of fact, we have applied our thermal barrier coatings to the stock heads making them run noticeably cooler than ANY billet head without a coating, increase in eff because we are reflecting the heat back into the combustion charge, all while still costing less than a billet head. Cooler, faster, cheaper.... Just saying that there are ways around the issues discussed in the previous 50 pages......

 

 

Brandon

[shanYE west]

I think one thing worth noting in this rant is when comparing heads, are we talking

 

A, billet head with off the shelf domes

B, billet head with custom cut domes for the specific engine setup

C, Decked stock head where the mating surface is simply milled down

D, Decked/rechambered stock head where the mating surface AND the chamber are machining for a specific engine setup.

 

 

 

I think there is still some confusion in all the posts as to "what is what". We claim that our stock modded heads are better than any off the shelf billet head simply because we custom tailor the head for each engine. Obviously when comparing to custom machined domes, there would not be too much difference other than we have some limitations with the stock heads.

 

Regarding stock head decking only, that should be reserved for people with a"very restrictive anal port". Reason is you are leaving HP on the table as well as inviting detonation and excessive heat due to a STILL inefficient flame front... We will not do or or recommend it but will admit that it will improve performance to a degree. This should, however, NOT be put in the same ball field as a proper decked/rechambered stock head.

 

Regarding engine operating temps, there is just not bit of real proof that a billet head truly makes an engine much cooler. It does not take too much thermodynamic math to prove that adding a small amount of coolant volume (water) to the cooling system will indeed take longer to heat thus heating up SLOWER, BUT, once equilibrium temps are achieved, there would not be much of a difference.

 

NOW, if you compare a stock decked head to an "off the shelf" coolhead as many run, the coolhead dome is already refined for better combustion where as the decked stocker would still have a shit design which would lead to "slower" flame front propagation and increased head heating. Simply improving the chamber can actually "reduce" perceived operating temps due to the faster burn rate. In short, if you compared two engines that make 50HP and one is 30% eff and the other is 50% eff, which do you think makes more heat as a by product???

 

Now I am not going to defend stock heads tooth and nail because there simply are some things you cannot do with them BUT I think comparing apples to apples is important. Matter of fact, we have applied our thermal barrier coatings to the stock heads making them run noticeably cooler than ANY billet head without a coating, increase in eff because we are reflecting the heat back into the combustion charge, all while still costing less than a billet head. Cooler, faster, cheaper.... Just saying that there are ways around the issues discussed in the previous 50 pages......

 

 

Brandon

 

Thats 100% what i was getting at. Nice post.

[hank 024]

solryder your brain must have fallen out of your ass with all that colon blow LET IT GO

[brugal]

Again, I can't speak for every one out there.

But I believe my advice would be best for the majority of those out there.

 

Before you consider buying a cool head, you should ask yourself "Do I plan on changing my steup more than three or four times"

If the answer is yes, then maybe you should consider a cool head.

If the answer is no, and you want the best bang for your buck, Get a set of pipes, mill your stock head, mod your timing plate, and send your jugs to get ported.

You should be able to afford a much better port job now that you've saved money on the cool head.

 

 

Do you still disagree with me?

 

I agree with this paragraph 100%

 

Their's a lot of really good information in this thread, once you get passed all the xtra shit.

[AKheathen]

Seriously this is the first I hear of having problems from milling more than .025". Contact namely.

I mean, you were in high school. You had high schoolers milling your head.

Do you think that perhaps a mistake was made somewhere.

You say the ring hit the head? The ring should be no less than .100" from the head at tdc. How did the ring hit the head? Something was out of wack.

um, prime example of you reading what you want. that's not what he said. how many times just in the past couple days has someone sated "THAT'S NOT WHAT HE SAID"????

 

From what I gather from that file, you are at the safe limit on 90 octane.15 to 30. It is at 30.7, which is juuuuust beyong the absolute safe limit. At 90 octane.

Rick has been fooling with this software for years and years. I have complete faith in his word. If he says .035" is fine, .030" on a tight engine I believe him. Like I said, people go down to .038" on the stock head all the time and never have problems.

once again, reading what you want. i looked at all that info, then looked again, then studied, ran some numbers, and looked again.......yep, 5 minuets later, it's still a dangerous ass setup. i'd put money that some tr-6's would demolish that topend, and any pipe mid-top+, as well as any pipe that would be high efficiency for stock setup. you would need a pipe that is all bottom end, and one that likes more flow than that setup can produce, to keep the return pulse weak enough. you would also need to keep the timing stock, and not allow for any wear. basically good for 1 weekend at some event, and you're done. same as- you can run 19ccdomes on 93oct.@asl, and real hard, no problems, but several hours setting it up all the time, and the slightest problem will fuck it up.

 

You just Disagreed with yourself.

 

I think a stock milled head approx .025" to .030will give you essentially the same gains as running a cool head. if someone is rechambering to your particular engine, rpm ceiling ect then you might get a noticeable gain from having the domes CUSTOM milled. I will agree with you there.

reading what you want....again.....

 

I believe you are being overly conservative, but that is just my opinion.

I think that .025" would be a good safe conservative number.

But I hate to argue over .005" so let's just agree to disagree.

not argueing over .005" is like not arguing over 5 degrees timing. yes, there is a point where .001" means the difference between the piston hitting the dome, or not, detonation, preignition, and wear limits. it's not an "about" number, but an exact, and changes all the time, as the engine wears. i think since all that matters is what macdizzy says, all that you hear is the sweat dripping of his nuts(which probably sounds however you want it to, aswell) and no one wants to listen to what you demand here, you should just go pester him untill he realizez giving you info is a really bad idea.....seeing what you do to good info.

[AKheathen]

If I don't answer your questions it is because I have you on ignore from being a hemroid.

It's time to chill.

The reason I said uccr is what dictates octane, it because I was trying to get the fact across that cranking compression is almost useless in determining what type of fuel to run.

 

He is making it sound like the only reason he didnt deto with that much milling, is the fact that his exhaust port height knocked his compression enough to warrant pump. Whenin fact he could be running 220 degrees of exhaust duration and still deto, even though his cranking compression is only 120.

UCCR is the dominant factor in determining octane requirements. If you are on the edge, compensate with fuel/ timing.

oh, for future reference, you're not allowed to think about, use or relay any info i've given you, or that you have derrived from my posts in other threads. btw, i would also like you to answer zilas' question about the car....you said you will admit when you are wrong, especially when proven wrong, so............i know you can't have him on ignore when you actually respond to the other parts of his posts........

[mikechief]

There's 2 ways to build a banshee. The fast way and the slo way. the fast way is expensive!

I didn't shave my head. I ditched my base gaskets. Raised my exhaust made my intake look way fuckn thirsty and carved out the top of my pistons to keep the transfers open a Lil bit longer

 

Cost $40

 

Shees not slow! Shee wants to hurt me .... Cuz I beat her

 

I got a whole top end on eBay for $120 planned on sending it to a builder but I don't really trust them anymore thanks to all you jerkoffs. 12 grand for a boat motor bunch of fags

[Keyser Soze]

BINGO! Cool heads do have advantages but cooling is just not one of them!

[SLORYDER]

Thats 100% what i was getting at. Nice post.

 

Makes sense to me.

I think it is safe to say that an off the shelf cool head dome isn't going to be a significant increase in performance over the stock milled head. Nor will the cooling properties be significantly better.

If you want something significantly better than the stock milled head you need domes custom cut to your app.

 

So we have about 80% of the voters that say the cool head is worth it, compared to probably 10% in real life who really truthfully could benifit from one.

 

But I'm the brainwashed one

[SLORYDER]

um, prime example of you reading what you want. that's not what he said. how many times just in the past couple days has someone sated "THAT'S NOT WHAT HE SAID"????

 

 

once again, reading what you want. i looked at all that info, then looked again, then studied, ran some numbers, and looked again.......yep, 5 minuets later, it's still a dangerous ass setup. i'd put money that some tr-6's would demolish that topend, and any pipe mid-top+, as well as any pipe that would be high efficiency for stock setup. you would need a pipe that is all bottom end, and one that likes more flow than that setup can produce, to keep the return pulse weak enough. you would also need to keep the timing stock, and not allow for any wear. basically good for 1 weekend at some event, and you're done. same as- you can run 19ccdomes on 93oct.@asl, and real hard, no problems, but several hours setting it up all the time, and the slightest problem will fuck it up.

 

 

reading what you want....again.....

 

 

not argueing over .005" is like not arguing over 5 degrees timing. yes, there is a point where .001" means the difference between the piston hitting the dome, or not, detonation, preignition, and wear limits. it's not an "about" number, but an exact, and changes all the time, as the engine wears. i think since all that matters is what macdizzy says, all that you hear is the sweat dripping of his nuts(which probably sounds however you want it to, aswell) and no one wants to listen to what you demand here, you should just go pester him untill he realizez giving you info is a really bad idea.....seeing what you do to good info.

 

Dude you're more interested in putting me down than anything else. I bet you can hardly sleep at night huh.

Give it a break my friend. That engine rick built IS made for all bottom end. He has 700 X the experience you have building engines. I would love for you two to discuss it formaly. Perhaps I can arrange a meeting.

Even you said you ran a head cut .030", when daj said it would destroy the engine, but you could care less about attacking him.

All I am saying is that if you are going o stick with pump gas cut your head .025-.030". If you want a better setup get custom domes or let Brandon mill your head for cheaper. Most people do not need a cool head plain and simple.

You just can't stand to see me win. It is pathetic. Like a little girl.

[SLORYDER]

There's 2 ways to build a banshee. The fast way and the slo way. the fast way is expensive!

I didn't shave my head. I ditched my base gaskets. Raised my exhaust made my intake look way fuckn thirsty and carved out the top of my pistons to keep the transfers open a Lil bit longer

 

Cost $40

 

Shees not slow! Shee wants to hurt me .... Cuz I beat her

 

I got a whole top end on eBay for $120 planned on sending it to a builder but I don't really trust them anymore thanks to all you jerkoffs. 12 grand for a boat motor bunch of fags

 

LOL.

Did you really do all that? Did you notice a good bump in performance?

Edited August 6, 2010 by SLORYDER

[shanYE west]

Makes sense to me.

I think it is safe to say that an off the shelf cool head dome isn't going to be a significant increase in performance over the stock milled head. Nor will the cooling properties be significantly better.

If you want something significantly better than the stock milled head you need domes custom cut to your app.

 

So we have about 80% of the voters that say the cool head is worth it, compared to probably 10% in real life who really truthfully could benifit from one.

 

But I'm the brainwashed one

 

 

"worth it" is kinda loaded question.. what might be worth it to one.. might not be to another. I dont think there is any brainwashing anywhere.. Each person makes the decision that they feel best suits their wants/needs. to each their own.

[broncbob]

he will never answer that question lol.

 

 

but i will say this.

on my setup, i have a milled head and a modded timing plate, i am not sure how much is milled on the head, the guy that ported my jugs knows, he told me but i forget, i think .025" was taken off. my set up is a for a mid range power and to run on premo.

 

only reason why i wont get a cool head right now, i dont want to tear my engine apart again, and i dont want to swap studs.

when my engine blows, i am getting a cool head.

Go with the Noss Machine head, uses stock studs and acorn nuts, SEXY!

 

The head can be changed with the engine in the frame, pipes have to be off, I take the tank off, but you don't have to.