Spacer plates cranks and port timings

[Pasi S.]

I thought that the stock transfer duration with stock crank and gasket was closer to 125 or 126!?! I don´t know...

 

-Pasi S.

[SLORYDER]

there you go attacking people again- it's not that we will not post numbers, or lie about it. even brandon/mull is jumping in to help, it's that we don't want to post unproven or mistaken numbers, because once someone takes it in good faith as fact, not estimate, and hacks some cyls, then it's really your fault for screwing up someones cyls. not technically, or legally, but morrally. i can tell you that the 4mill-no spacer was more accurate on your first post, to the best of my knowledge, but i'm not 100% how close on the transfers. only way to know is when i drop the crank in and check it. oh, and i wouldn't think of asking a builder to spit out too much info, since that is knowledge that they spent years and tons of money to gain, and puts food in their families mouths. the builders on this site are above and beyond helpfull

 

You're the jackass who seldom has anything positive to say in any of my topics.

 

I apologize if Brandon took it as an attack; I have nothing against him.

 

I do have something against a group of people, who instead of trying to share information they Act like porting an engine is rocket science and discourage everyone from trying it themselves.

It's like a big frickin tourist trap where everyone is funneled to the builders and nds up spending thousands of dollars to get 80 hp when in fact they could have got 70 for a fourth the cost.

People fail to mention that and I am just here to share information with other do it yourselfers.

 

So if you know something and just say yeah man those numbers are off it ticks me off because if someone was in need of information I would try to help them to the best of my ability.

I don't expect builders to give away their secrets but c'mon, is this really a secret?

[SLORYDER]

I thought that the stock transfer duration with stock crank and gasket was closer to 125 or 126!?! I don´t know...

 

-Pasi S.

 

If you measure the distance from the bottom of the main transfer port to the top on a STOCK set of cylinders I can tell you for sure.

I got these numbers from a reputable source but cannot say I measured it myself.

[SLORYDER]

It seems like most people are getting from 116-120 for the transfrer port duration.

 

The numbers will ary slightly from engine to engine, but I believe these will get you in the ballpark.

[Pasi S.]

SLORYDER, try to understund what I´m trying to tell you here.

 

Builders are site sponsors. Without them you don´t have the place to run your mouth - FREE.

Buy a set of pipes from the site sponsor and you will have a place to ask what kind of jetting you will need.

Buy a set of jets from the site sponsor and you will have a place to to ask how to use them.

After you have done some serious busines with the site sponsors and you have experience with you banshee build you can help some other rookies with the same problems. They will buy some parts from the site sponsors and they can come back and ask the next question. -You see what I´m trying to tell here?

Here is many people who can build and do some tricks to those banshee motors and also help us average Joes with our everyday problems to keep our Banshees going. That´s free for us and thanks to those site sponsors/builders.

 

Porting is easy. Most of us can hold the tool and make it look nice... but how does it runs??

 

 

Sorry if this was OT but I went from the gas to ALKY tonight! LOL!

 

-Pasi S.

[SLORYDER]

SLORYDER, try to understund what I´m trying to tell you here.

 

Builders are site sponsors. Without them you don´t have the place to run your mouth - FREE.

Buy a set of pipes from the site sponsor and you will have a place to ask what kind of jetting you will need.

Buy a set of jets from the site sponsor and you will have a place to to ask how to use them.

After you have done some serious busines with the site sponsors and you have experience with you banshee build you can help some other rookies with the same problems. They will buy some parts from the site sponsors and they can come back and ask the next question. -You see what I´m trying to tell here?

Here is many people who can build and do some tricks to those banshee motors and also help us average Joes with our everyday problems to keep our Banshees going. That´s free for us and thanks to those site sponsors/builders.

 

 

I'm not telling any secrets, nor am I asking for any

[AKheathen]

alright, listen you fucktard- i wasn't bashing you untill you got all butthurt and whined about brandon, sleeper, and me not postingup numbers. bottom line- i can say i don't have the exact numbers, and probably never will, aside from stock and stock4mill-no spacer, untill they are verified by someone or i put it on the wheel. i don't know if they have the other numbers just laying around either, since they pretty much deal in final correctly ported durrations without a spacer. fact of the matter- you are rather reckles with sharing info, not in the sence that it is secret, or just speculation and guessing, or even mistaken in general, but some of this potential misleading can do serious damage to not only to a topend, but to people themselfs. i don't really agree with pasi in the statement that you should do buisiness with a sponsor to have the right to use the site, but i understand drunken posts,lol. i don't know where you keep getting the idea that we are all trying feed the sposors and not give the people freedom to do what they want. we all talk good about sponsors and suggest them because we like them. they all have good deals, do honest, unbeatable work, and are safe. i cannot think of one that does not go above and beyond for us. i think you are just trying to upp your "freedom fighter" persona, more than help. if you wanna "fight the battle" go pay for a membership at some other forum, where it is a problem, and have fun there. i'm sure it will not be so many peers speking out, but site management gettin pissed off having to deal with the tin-foil hat mentalitly. you know- i was searching something a few months ago and came across some car furum, like honda or wrx, or something, and one guy asked about removing the governor and all holy hell broke loose about speeding and shit. don't know why that comes to mind, but i do wonder how long a guy like you would last there....that would likely be your last post, and you wouldn't even get the satisfaction of telling them to fuck off. this is a damn liberal site, and i am fuckin greatfull it's here. i get nothing from suggesting a sponsor, nor do i benifit from hiding helpfull info. this site is here to perpetuate and enjoy the shee, which means that the more bikes AND their riders keep running good, the longer bhq stays strong.

[camatv]

umm i didnt read the whole post just the beginning BUT i'll just say you should buy a degree wheel and actually measure the ports at some time..

 

i will also say YOU CANNOT get a good port timing out of stock cylinders with a 4 mill long rod with a spacer plate. i just dont see it happening last one i did worked best with the thinnest ( cometic) base gasket i had the stock basegaskets even raised the port timing up to around 133-134 d on the transfer's.. they work the best with properly ported cylinders among other things and domes fitted corectelly. the 2mm thick copper gasket should work good

 

i can see why the spacer plated motors are so slow.,. i do believe that a properly ported 350cc short rod motor can outrun a cobbled together 4 mill with ease.

 

if you think you can do transfer work with a dremel and some bits your very lost.. it takes a 90 d tool and even then it took me a LOT of broken bits with different cuts and materials to find the ones that work well with lil to no chatter. it also takes a very strong hand to hold it if your cutting a lot at a time it takes experience.. hands down

[SLORYDER]

 

if you think you can do transfer work with a dremel and some bits your very lost.. it takes a 90 d tool and even then it took me a LOT of broken bits with different cuts and materials to find the ones that work well with lil to no chatter. it also takes a very strong hand to hold it if your cutting a lot at a time it takes experience.. hands down

 

That is the beauty of using spacer plates/ stroker cranks. YOU DON'T HAVE TO TOUCH THE TRANSFER ROOFS.

You drop them in, and your timing is where you need it. Then, you can get a spherical bit and lower the port floor to get your time/ area values. Yes?

 

And I don't advocate using base spacers.

 

4 mill crank, lower the ports 2mm, widen the exhaust 3mm, raise it 3mm for a good all around engine 60-65hp.

 

Or 4 mill crank, .060" base gasket, stock head gasket (squish permitting). Lower ports 3mm, widen exhaust 4mm, raise 4mm for a drag port.

Edited June 25, 2010 by SLORYDER

[SLORYDER]

alright, listen you fucktard- i wasn't bashing you untill you got all butthurt and whined about brandon, sleeper, and me not postingup numbers. bottom line- i can say i don't have the exact numbers, and probably never will, aside from stock and stock4mill-no spacer, untill they are verified by someone or i put it on the wheel. i don't know if they have the other numbers just laying around either, since they pretty much deal in final correctly ported durrations without a spacer. fact of the matter- you are rather reckles with sharing info, not in the sence that it is secret, or just speculation and guessing, or even mistaken in general, but some of this potential misleading can do serious damage to not only to a topend, but to people themselfs. i don't really agree with pasi in the statement that you should do buisiness with a sponsor to have the right to use the site, but i understand drunken posts,lol. i don't know where you keep getting the idea that we are all trying feed the sposors and not give the people freedom to do what they want. we all talk good about sponsors and suggest them because we like them. they all have good deals, do honest, unbeatable work, and are safe. i cannot think of one that does not go above and beyond for us. i think you are just trying to upp your "freedom fighter" persona, more than help. if you wanna "fight the battle" go pay for a membership at some other forum, where it is a problem, and have fun there. i'm sure it will not be so many peers speking out, but site management gettin pissed off having to deal with the tin-foil hat mentalitly. you know- i was searching something a few months ago and came across some car furum, like honda or wrx, or something, and one guy asked about removing the governor and all holy hell broke loose about speeding and shit. don't know why that comes to mind, but i do wonder how long a guy like you would last there....that would likely be your last post, and you wouldn't even get the satisfaction of telling them to fuck off. this is a damn liberal site, and i am fuckin greatfull it's here. i get nothing from suggesting a sponsor, nor do i benifit from hiding helpfull info. this site is here to perpetuate and enjoy the shee, which means that the more bikes AND their riders keep running good, the longer bhq stays strong.

 

Dude I'm not telling people to take my advice as the final word.

Just giving an idea as to how much work needs to be done to get their engine running good.

I would rather not waste 2 grand to get 80 hp, when i can get 70 for $500. It's just me.

And rest assured I will check my numbers with a wheel before I cut. I just think it's neat to know that there isn't a whole lot of work involved in porting if you know shortcuts.

I don't thin ANY advice I've given so far has the potential to do ANY damage to ANYone's engine or person.

 

I'm starting to think this is a site for the sponsers, not the members.

Kind of like the movie, from dusk till dawn lol. Dazzle everyone with trickery then go for the throat lol.

 

Bottom line is put a degree wheel on then cut.

However most people are not aware of how little they really need to cut.

Buddy

Edited June 25, 2010 by SLORYDER

[hercalmighty]

Slo. Believe me, I want to know as much as I can about porting and if guys would post up some numbers it would be great.

My point with all this is that it takes a lot more then a little window cutting to get 70hp. As far as price, 450 for new crank, 300 for bore and topend, then for another 400-500 you can get someone who really knows what they are doing to get the motor just the way you want.

It takes a lot of math to really get the ports to match your pipe and what kind of power you want.

Its not just the roof angles, its getting the correct angles to blow back into the bore, porting your transfer tunnels, and matching everything to the pipe and what kind of power you want.

 

How bout this Slo, get a stock motor and put the pipe and carbs of your choice on it and dyno it. Then build the 4mil like you want with just lowering the port floors and widing the exhaust like you outlined, and go back to the dyno and post the results.

[blowit]

 

 

I do have something against a group of people, who instead of trying to share information they Act like porting an engine is rocket science and discourage everyone from trying it themselves.

It's like a big frickin tourist trap where everyone is funneled to the builders and nds up spending thousands of dollars to get 80 hp when in fact they could have got 70 for a fourth the cost.

People fail to mention that and I am just here to share information with other do it yourselfers.

 

So if you know something and just say yeah man those numbers are off it ticks me off because if someone was in need of information I would try to help them to the best of my ability.

I don't expect builders to give away their secrets but c'mon, is this really a secret?

 

 

It is important to remember that though the actual "porting" process of cylinders is not rocket science, the knowledge required to truly understand it enough to know how to improve them really is. Most builders have learned from other builders work but if no one would ever get to see other's work, this would truly be a interesting platform.... After all, if all those books were NOT available, how many people would begin to understand porting at all??

 

I don't consider port timings to be a secret by any means because if they are not executed properly and other geometries done wrong, it won't much matter. There just is not a magic set of numbers that work for every customer. Rider weight, altitude, fuel, pipes, use, etc , etc all play in to what timings might be optimal.

 

I will add from an engineer's perspective, if you are going to use someone else's calculator system as gospel, you are already at a disadvantage because you are not sure if that is actually right. It is important to prove the data to yourself. IE, calculate, find "your" value, cross check with the internet calcs, check with a timing wheel, etc to ensure accuracy.

[SLORYDER]

It is important to remember that though the actual "porting" process of cylinders is not rocket science, the knowledge required to truly understand it enough to know how to improve them really is. Most builders have learned from other builders work but if no one would ever get to see other's work, this would truly be a interesting platform.... After all, if all those books were NOT available, how many people would begin to understand porting at all??

 

I don't consider port timings to be a secret by any means because if they are not executed properly and other geometries done wrong, it won't much matter. There just is not a magic set of numbers that work for every customer. Rider weight, altitude, fuel, pipes, use, etc , etc all play in to what timings might be optimal.

 

I will add from an engineer's perspective, if you are going to use someone else's calculator system as gospel, you are already at a disadvantage because you are not sure if that is actually right. It is important to prove the data to yourself. IE, calculate, find "your" value, cross check with the internet calcs, check with a timing wheel, etc to ensure accuracy.

 

I'm trying to think how to put this....

Random thoughts

Would it really hurt your business that bad if people knew how to port?..........

I really don't know why I put forth this much effort. I like to be helpful I guess.

It seems liek every time I try to discuss porting here i am struck with stiff opposition.

I am a paid member on other sites, and there is NO withholding of information there. I have learned so much there.

The site owner is most helpful and will answer ANY question to his 10+ years of knowledge.

He is a builder.

He builds mostly TRX engines, and has a TRX section on his forum where he answers just about every porting question asked. Freely gives out port timings ect.

I mean, ,,,,,,,If I was a builder, I would want to do everything I could to make more money.

I guess I wouuld want this kind of information suppressed. I would, so i don't blame you.

 

This is a relly really helpful site, it is. And I believe it is set up to maximizer builders profits at the same time. No sponsers, no site huh.

Are there topics in the restricteed forum where porting info is shared openly?

Maybe if so there would be more paid members and revenue could go up that way?

 

Maybe I am a douchebag for pissing in you guys cheerios. Sometimes I think it's a good idea to not discuss these things on the forum, I guess for you guys sake. But at other times I believe that this forum would be a better place and would grow if everyone shared their little porting tricks and we all had super fast banshees with the added satisfaction of doing it ourselves.

But I guess that would not be best for you guys huh. So I really don't know what the right thing is to do.

I think maybe in the premium members forum there should be a thread dedicated to porting tricks, but you'd have too pay to acccess it.

That would be good for the members, and the site, but what about the sponsers.....?

I guess maybe you guy's business would suffer marginally. But it'd be 100% better for the people who wnt to take the initiative to pay the money and help themselves.

If I knew that was going on I would surely keep it hush hush on the non paying side.

 

I'm not really sure what would be best though, as far as the big picture.

I guess the way it is is satisfactory. I just wish there was a place where we could get really in depth and learn more about the banshee engine.

 

I guess I just love to learn, and get satisfaction out of helping others.

 

Maybe I shouldn't make threads like this and spill the beans.

I dunno.

[Zeroskill]

How bout this Slo, get a stock motor and put the pipe and carbs of your choice on it and dyno it. Then build the 4mil like you want with just lowering the port floors and widing the exhaust like you outlined, and go back to the dyno and post the results.

 

That would be too much like science for him. If you read some of his other threads you will see he prefers faith and tin foil hattery to science and facts.

[SLORYDER]

450 for new crank, 300 for bore and topend,

 

Who said anything about a topend. Are you that brainwashed into thinking you need a new top end every time you remove the cylinder?

 

 

then for another 400-500 you can get someone who really knows what they are doing to get the motor just the way you want.

Try 300 for the teardown, 100 for shipping, 250 for porting

That's more than 4-500

 

It takes a lot of math to really get the ports to match your pipe and what kind of power you want.

Its not just the roof angles, its getting the correct angles to blow back into the bore, porting your transfer tunnels, and matching everything to the pipe and what kind of power you want.

You are really good at this drone thing.

I can tell you that 120/ 188 will be good for an all around engine for a piped (non drag) engine. Wow, that was so much math. I can tell you that a heavier rider will require less blowdown. I can tell you that you can get away with more blowdown, with a heavier rider if you have more compression.

And guess what, I didn't have to break out my scientiffic calculator either.

I can assure that you do NOT have to change the transfer angles to get more power. You can make a lot more power without changing one angle.

 

How bout this Slo, get a stock motor and put the pipe and carbs of your choice on it and dyno it. Then build the 4mil like you want with just lowering the port floors and widing the exhaust like you outlined, and go back to the dyno and post the results.

How about this, when I get back to Louisiana, I'll slap the motor I ported on the dyno and see what kind of numbers I get. These numbers will be without touching the transfers roofs other than raising them 1mm for some correction work.