PassionRE Posted June 9, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 (edited) You uh...might want to take your competitors pipe out of your sig... Thabnks Dave, was wondering when somebody would notice that :0 hey Jim its Mark from australia. can you clean out your pm's please, me and the guys are trying to get in contact with you. thanks, mark ok Mark, been a little hard to get hold of the last few weeks...rent house hell! Edited June 9, 2010 by PassionRE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magz Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 Thabnks Dave, was wondering when somebody would notice that :0 ok Mark, been a little hard to get hold of the last few weeks...rent house hell! im just saying this now, because it could happen, if you guys get a nice big warehouse and need employees and can pay atleast 14 hourly ill come work for you.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banshee332 Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 im just saying this now, because it could happen, if you guys get a nice big warehouse and need employees and can pay atleast 14 hourly ill come work for you.. He'll if they needed help I would walk away from my business pack up and move to Tulsa ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camatv Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 You are right about volumetric efficiency not being 100%. The only way I know to check VE is to put transducers in the crankcase and in the intake manifold and a MAF sensor connected to a data recorder, then compare the pressures to the atmospheric pressure at your altitude. If you have just a MAF reading in (Lb/Min) and the temperature the day of the test I can figure the volumetric efficiency from math. But seeing the pressures differences between the crankcase and manifold at reed closing would tell me more. I always felt that the way a 2 stroke works it would be hard to figure if it is 100% able to fill its self from just the pull of intake..( wording?) a 4stroke relies on the piston and valves alone to fill itself BUT as i see it a 2 stroke fills its lower cavity then using the pipe can crate MORE than what i pulled into itself to fill the chamber. BUT then its short pressure cycle, and unfull burn can change that but that in turn is what makes the pipe work.. but also makes the motor not so fuel effecient ( OR is it the fact that for 9000 rpm's or so its firing everytime? and would be like a 4 stroke running at 18,000 rpm's firing ever other revolution) i'm not sure if you could ever fully figure out what the ve is of a 2 stroke. i also noticed after doing some reading that the V.E. is realted to resonance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RZBansheeMan Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 I'm no expert at two strokes, but with the pressure waves moving back and forth, isn't that inertia supercharging ??? I also am curious to know if Jim is going to be not so useful with his time and develop a 2:1 Sniper dune pipe ????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srp Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 I always felt that the way a 2 stroke works it would be hard to figure if it is 100% able to fill its self from just the pull of intake..( wording?) a 4stroke relies on the piston and valves alone to fill itself BUT as i see it a 2 stroke fills its lower cavity then using the pipe can crate MORE than what i pulled into itself to fill the chamber. BUT then its short pressure cycle, and unfull burn can change that but that in turn is what makes the pipe work.. but also makes the motor not so fuel effecient ( OR is it the fact that for 9000 rpm's or so its firing everytime? and would be like a 4 stroke running at 18,000 rpm's firing ever other revolution) i'm not sure if you could ever fully figure out what the ve is of a 2 stroke. i also noticed after doing some reading that the V.E. is realted to resonance. You will very rarely see anybody using volumetric efficiency as a way to tune a two stroke mainly because of the returning wave of trapped air being forced back into the motor at exhaust port closing. This raises the delivery ratio to close to 1.4 with a highly tuned pipe, meaning a 350cc engine will burn 490ccs of air/fuel. That is supercharging and the better pipes will have a higher PSI amplitude than a bad pipe will have. Mopedarmy.com has a good animation of this. If I knew how to setup a link to it I would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PassionRE Posted June 10, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 (edited) im just saying this now, because it could happen, if you guys get a nice big warehouse and need employees and can pay atleast 14 hourly ill come work for you.. Can you TIG weld?...may need welders once were up and running. He'll if they needed help I would walk away from my business pack up and move to Tulsa ok Same for you Brad, start learning TIG..its gonna be BIG. I always felt that the way a 2 stroke works it would be hard to figure if it is 100% able to fill its self from just the pull of intake..( wording?) a 4stroke relies on the piston and valves alone to fill itself BUT as i see it a 2 stroke fills its lower cavity then using the pipe can crate MORE than what i pulled into itself to fill the chamber. BUT then its short pressure cycle, and unfull burn can change that but that in turn is what makes the pipe work.. but also makes the motor not so fuel effecient ( OR is it the fact that for 9000 rpm's or so its firing everytime? and would be like a 4 stroke running at 18,000 rpm's firing ever other revolution) i'm not sure if you could ever fully figure out what the ve is of a 2 stroke. i also noticed after doing some reading that the V.E. is realted to resonance. Gary has the data files on the inframe ...trapping efficiency, scavenging, and charging eff. etc. were off the charts...maybe he'll chime in. I'm no expert at two strokes, but with the pressure waves moving back and forth, isn't that inertia supercharging ??? I also am curious to know if Jim is going to be not so useful with his time and develop a 2:1 Sniper dune pipe ????? Actually, I would be the guy to do that. I have a TON of 2-1 experience on 2 cycles. In my younger years ,I was a Kawasaki Jet Ski fanatic...they used those style exhausts because of cowling room restraints. Contrary to popular belief, they can be made to run HARD. Not as hard as a state of the art twin pipes, but probably harder than several twin pipe set-ups that are being marketed currently. I just wonder what the demand for that type of thing would be though. It costs a ton of money and time to R&D a good expansion chamber. If the payback was there, maybe Gary and I could work on that....but I know Gary would have to be pretty damn sure the demand would be there before he invested the time and effort...I feel the same way about that too. anybodys thoughts on this 2-1 subject? or any other concerns pertaining to Snipers?...please chime in.....Jim Edited June 10, 2010 by PassionRE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2strokespirit Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 Can you TIG weld?...may need welders once were up and running. Same for you Brad, start learning TIG..its gonna be BIG. Gary has the data files on the inframe ...trapping efficiency, scavenging, and charging eff. etc. were off the charts...maybe he'll chime in. Actually, I would be the guy to do that. I have a TON of 2-1 experience on 2 cycles. In my younger years ,I was a Kawasaki Jet Ski fanatic...they used those style exhausts because of cowling room restraints. Contrary to popular belief, they can be made to run HARD. Not as hard as a state of the art twin pipes, but probably harder than several twin pipe set-ups that are being marketed currently. I just wonder what the demand for that type of thing would be though. It costs a ton of money and time to R&D a good expansion chamber. If the payback was there, maybe Gary and I could work on that....but I know Gary would have to be pretty damn sure the demand would be there before he invested the time and effort...I feel the same way about that too. anybodys thoughts on this 2-1 subject? or any other concerns pertaining to Snipers?...please chime in.....Jim Hi Jim.... At last... Pipes on the market.... And you back on HQ?? I totally missed this thread, although you assured me it will be coming.... Great news man, and you back up everything you stand behind.... No question I asked was ever replied with just an answer, it was always a answer WITH a explanation to back up the answer.... I hope you will send a set to BVH Racing Developments in South Africa? Regards Burger.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rb0804 Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 Thanks for that input. It looks like you are on the same page as we are. But many others think different and that is why he is asking. It will show that you, me and Rob are thinking the same when we post some of our OOf drag pipes sheets. We have designed and tested several drag pipes that make peak power 800 rpm earlier than most pipes out now. Our horse-power numbers are 4% stronger than the small bore small flange OOF drag pipes that we test against. We are looking forward to showing off our products at some off the big races. The one size fits all is not our philosophy. We will offer our pipes to builders unwelded to fab and tweak and tune to get the most out of there porting configurations. We feel that most builders theory's are good if they are match up to the right pipe. !!!chrome!!! Does anybody know of a good chrome shop around the Tulsa Oklahoma area? Just a concern that I have, and I have had for sometime now, even with other manufactures. If you offer a 'custom' tweak to fit someones certain setup (or even a design change) and they decided to go in a different direction or sell their stuff off (for whatever reason). Then someone who has a totally different setup may purchase and run those pipes. They might not work so good with the new combination. How do I know if I have the new one or the old one? Which one would work better? If a guy is selling a Sniper pipe that was tweaked for the 421 and I go bolting it on my 370, we might have an issue. Basically what I am getting at is that you should do one of two things. Either serial number each pipe and keep a note of it so when someone calls, they know exactly what they are getting or send them out with a spec 'card.' In the 4 poke world when you purchase a camshaft you get a cam card with the cam specs on it. Really, the same should apply to two stroke pipes. This should include the bore x stroke as well as the port timing that these particular pipes were setup for. This card should be kept by the purchaser and passed along to any potentail buyers down the road. This will help keep your name on top and will help keep things straight if you start to offer 'custom tweaks'. I am curious to hear some thoughts on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajogejr Posted June 11, 2010 Report Share Posted June 11, 2010 In my opinion, RB...it is not the manufacturer's responsibility to track what pipes they sell setup for what motor. That is the responsibility of the buyer then seller. If someone is selling you a 4 mil crank it better be as advertised....not a stocker. And so on... If someone is spending the time and cheddar on a pipe for their bike, I'd say it goes with the bike or at least the motor... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
locogato11283 Posted June 11, 2010 Report Share Posted June 11, 2010 In my opinion, RB...it is not the manufacturer's responsibility to track what pipes they sell setup for what motor. That is the responsibility of the buyer then seller. If someone is selling you a 4 mil crank it better be as advertised....not a stocker. And so on... If someone is spending the time and cheddar on a pipe for their bike, I'd say it goes with the bike or at least the motor... I agree. The pipe builder cannot be held accountable for what happens with the pipes once they are passed on to the original buyer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srp Posted June 11, 2010 Report Share Posted June 11, 2010 Just a concern that I have, and I have had for sometime now, even with other manufactures. If you offer a 'custom' tweak to fit someones certain setup (or even a design change) and they decided to go in a different direction or sell their stuff off (for whatever reason). Then someone who has a totally different setup may purchase and run those pipes. They might not work so good with the new combination. How do I know if I have the new one or the old one? Which one would work better? If a guy is selling a Sniper pipe that was tweaked for the 421 and I go bolting it on my 370, we might have an issue. Basically what I am getting at is that you should do one of two things. Either serial number each pipe and keep a note of it so when someone calls, they know exactly what they are getting or send them out with a spec 'card.' In the 4 poke world when you purchase a camshaft you get a cam card with the cam specs on it. Really, the same should apply to two stroke pipes. This should include the bore x stroke as well as the port timing that these particular pipes were setup for. This card should be kept by the purchaser and passed along to any potentail buyers down the road. This will help keep your name on top and will help keep things straight if you start to offer 'custom tweaks'. I am curious to hear some thoughts on this. Our pipes that are tweaked for builders will have a tab with that builders name on it. The builder will know what porting configuration his pipes will work best with. So that information will not be hard to get and our variations will have tabs stating deference's. We will work very close with the builders especially with our drag pipes looking for that last couple of horse-power. Our drag pipes will be four piece stamps just like the inframes making them adjustable at the header and belly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camatv Posted June 11, 2010 Report Share Posted June 11, 2010 i knew the pipe was supercharging the 2 strokes its what makes them actually work like they should.. i was just saying that if you can get a motor to 100% or OVER 100% with no adder's it can be very powerful. just something i think about from time to time one of those about to fall asleep wonderabout's.. i just thought about it. if the pipe can supercharge the motor you should be able to measure the boost internally?? ( again thinking out loud) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srp Posted June 11, 2010 Report Share Posted June 11, 2010 i knew the pipe was supercharging the 2 strokes its what makes them actually work like they should.. i was just saying that if you can get a motor to 100% or OVER 100% with no adder's it can be very powerful. just something i think about from time to time one of those about to fall asleep wonderabout's.. i just thought about it. if the pipe can supercharge the motor you should be able to measure the boost internally?? ( again thinking out loud) A data recorder with about ten transducers would do the trick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rb0804 Posted June 11, 2010 Report Share Posted June 11, 2010 (edited) In my opinion, RB...it is not the manufacturer's responsibility to track what pipes they sell setup for what motor. That is the responsibility of the buyer then seller. If someone is selling you a 4 mil crank it better be as advertised....not a stocker. And so on... If someone is spending the time and cheddar on a pipe for their bike, I'd say it goes with the bike or at least the motor... How many times have you seen someone buy a complete engine package (including pipes) and then they end up parting it out. Sometimes the engine goes as a complete item, other times it does not. Same with the pipes. Dave, you belong to several forums. How often do you see an engine advertised with a set of pipes? I agree that they should go together, but this is seldom the case. There are also people out there that will just buy a pipe because it is supposed to be the best. They may not know that there are four different version and probably couldn't even guess as to which one it is. My concern is say if someone is running a shearer or CPI pipe and then they purchase a used Sniper pipe and it doesn't run up to par, then they are going say that it doesn't run as well as the other pipes. When in reality they could have had the wrong pipe for the combination, and it might have worked really well. It is a nice addition that they are going to use builder tabs to help keep some of this straight. There has to be some small changes to the design to fit each builder and each engine combination. That is a necessity. Just curious if the builder is going to have the task of changing the design a bit or are they going to come from you guys (the manufacture) ready to go for each builder style? Edited June 11, 2010 by rb0804 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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