Duneman101 Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 +1 on what Daj said.... Big time props to Kanoodle for the pics and explanation, damn cool of you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old roost Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 +1 on what Daj said.... Big time props to Kanoodle for the pics and explanation, damn cool of you! x 10 for kanoodle for the time he took for the great right up!!!!!......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coupelx Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 how well does that wastegate location control boost? seems like it would creep with it coming off the runner rather than the collector. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BasicBajaX Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 (edited) how well does that wastegate location control boost? seems like it would creep with it coming off the runner rather than the collector. Ya I don.t understand why the bov would be on one runner only and not the collector... Did you decide on a different turbo just because you wanted one with a external bov setup or what I would really like to know is how you convert a internal bov to a external? I guess you could put a plate where the internal flapper would be... Good write up Kanoodle... What I meant to be refering too in wastegate and not bov! Edited September 25, 2009 by BasicBajaX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danhercules Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 I know 2-strokes are very sensitive to backpressure on the exh. Wonder how the turbo effects this. Probally why its so hard to tune. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanoodle Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 (edited) how well does that wastegate location control boost? seems like it would creep with it coming off the runner rather than the collector. Honestly I am not sure the physics behind this.. I do know if you run higher boost like 20psi+ it is better to use the external wastegate. If you like I can do a little research to try and find this out for you. The little that I do know about the wastegate is the the boost pressure that regulates when it opens... I have a few pictures I gathered to show you what a internal wastegate looks like and it's actuator... From what I recall the boost pressure is what makes the actuator actuate and how that ties into the boost controller i honestly don't know. My friend is going to show my this when I do my install. I am currently converting my 88 MR2 N/S Ya I don.t understand why the bov would be on one runner only and not the collector... Did you decide on a different turbo just because you wanted one with a external bov setup or what I would really like to know is how you convert a internal bov to a external? I guess you could put a plate where the internal flapper would be... Good write up Kanoodle... What I meant to be refering too in wastegate and not bov! 1) No, I decided on a different turbo because this one needs a new exhaust housing. There is a crack next to the internal wastegate hole. I searched for one awhile and decided I just want to run a different one. 2) You can convert several ways: block off the hole by welding in a plate, or replace the exhaust housing with one that is for a external wastegate. I do not know how the wastegate works with your boost controller to adjust how high of boost your setup will run, but here are a few pictures I gathered to fill in any holes I might have missed about the wastegates... Disassembled turbo Externally wastegated turbo basics of internally wastegated Cut away externally wastgated turbo Internally wastegated turbo exhaust housings. (part I would be replacing had I used this turbo...) Edited September 25, 2009 by kanoodle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanoodle Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 (edited) More pics Internal wastegate internal wastegate turbo cut away external wastegate turbo Edited September 25, 2009 by kanoodle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajogejr Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 So...ummm...kanoodle...which of these are run off the exhaust? I hooked up two of these to my banshee...and I didn't have to run them off the exhaust... http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Supercharger-Turbonator-Turbo-air-Intake-Fuel-Saver-Fan_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem27abb8afdcQQitemZ170384732124QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories It went from 35 HP stock to well over 100 MPH. it does 121 MPH with stock tires and stock gearing too...and it'll do 133 when I feed these turbonators into the boost bottle!!! Nice write ups Kanoodle...very nice info indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanoodle Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 So...ummm...kanoodle...which of these are run off the exhaust? I hooked up two of these to my banshee...and I didn't have to run them off the exhaust... http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Supercharger-Turbonator-Turbo-air-Intake-Fuel-Saver-Fan_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem27abb8afdcQQitemZ170384732124QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories It went from 35 HP stock to well over 100 MPH. it does 121 MPH with stock tires and stock gearing too...and it'll do 133 when I feed these turbonators into the boost bottle!!! Nice write ups Kanoodle...very nice info indeed. LMAO I'm guessing you hit those speed jumpin off a cliff???? These are retarded, all they might do is create your intake charge to swirl which may or may not give you a benefit from assuming it might mix the fuel and air to burn more even... No 133mph on stock gears from these devises.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajogejr Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 No...my buddy on his Honda Spree rode next to me and swears we were going over 100 when he clocked me... Just having some Friday Fun. The worst part is...people actually bought these from him on Ebay and clam they work. I guess a sucker is born every minute somewhere!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanoodle Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 (edited) I know 2-strokes are very sensitive to back pressure on the exh. Wonder how the turbo effects this. Probaly why its so hard to tune. I'm not too sure how it would act with a gas two stroke engine, but I will give you some info I learned a few weeks ago. The bigger the two stroke engine the less efficient it is. So say these big two stroke diesel engines wont run for shit without a turbo due these engines size and running off Venturi effect. This was word of mouth from someone that I trust so it could be looked into a little deeper I guess... But Banshee wise I would think SuperCharging one would be a lot easier, for one the boost stays more even and don't have to deal with back pressure caused by turbo and I'm guessing it would be much easier to tune as well. http://videos.howstuffworks.com/howstuffworks/200-how-diesel-two-stroke-engines-work-video.htm Edited September 25, 2009 by kanoodle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanoodle Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 No...my buddy on his Honda Spree rode next to me and swears we were going over 100 when he clocked me... Just having some Friday Fun. The worst part is...people actually bought these from him on Ebay and clam they work. I guess a sucker is born every minute somewhere!! LOL I know your being a prankster, with a name like that you would think it did something... The company just has good marketing skills. Like a few of you guys had no clue how a turbo worked but you knew it sure made things go fast. By using "turbo" in the name then adding something at the end it makes it sound better and more powerful than just Turbo so people buy it even though they have no clue what the hell it does lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajogejr Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 Turbo EFI is the way to go on a banshee. Turbos on banshees make a shit ton of power. The problem is fuel. they are super, super finicky. 10 degree change in temps, humidity, etc....and you have to re-tune them. Dan Hull is probably the best at tuning Turbos for banshees. My buddy had one, it was just such a headache to get constantly tune, but...it's like hitting that one shot in golf. You could hit them into the woods all day, into the sand...but that one great shot is what makes it worth it. It's really hard to race something so inconsistent...and tempermental. I was at the track the weekend that picture was taken inside the trailer of Hull's turbo bike. It sounded like a pissed off bumble bee going down the track and it was moving...big time. But that guy...as said, has forgotten more than 99% of us will ever know about this stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanoodle Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 Here is a vespa thats been turbo'd Running .6 bar which is right around 8psi this thing makes more power than my banshee lol but my banshee has more usable power http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2683135400295297703# Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanoodle Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 (edited) UPDATE.... Talked to a friend over I/M on how it controls boost... here is my convo with him..... then i refine it at the bottom so that more of you can understand it. Dustin~ says: how does the wastegate and boost controller interact to control how much boost you run? Jonesey says: hold on, Ill explain it in a sec Dustin~ says: k Jonesey says: k so, the turbo works by air going over the turbine right? Dustin~ says: yes Jonesey says: well exhaust gases pass the turbine and spin it up Dustin~ says: yes Jonesey says: well the wastegate is an alternate port that bypasses the turbine Dustin~ says: i know this Jonesey says: Ok, so if there is no air going across the turbine it doesnt boost if its all going through the turbine it overboosts so, the boost controller regulates how open the wastegate door is and that wg door position regulates flow across the turbine Dustin~ says: right Jonesey says: so thats how a boost controller works in a turbo, less is more so, if the air has a free flowing path to the wastegate the wastegate limits boost more so by limiting the air to the wastegate, you increase boost pressure by holding the door shut longer Dustin~ says: i see next time im over you will have to show me what line goes to what and the purpose i know that the door opening is what controls how much boost it pushes but i want to know how the boost controller works the wastegate and i guess how a boost controller works.... all in all i might just have to see it and have you show me each step Jonesey says: the boost controller works by limiting air K, think if you had a door actuated by you blowing in it and this door opens well, think how much harder youd have to blow to open the door if there was a kink in the line the boost controller acts by RESTRICTING air to the wastegate I cant "show" you how it works I dont have anything to show you with Dustin~ says: i have that turbo and waste gate actuator would that help? Jonesey says: yeah, that will show you how the wastegate works but seriously, its simple to wrap your head around restrict the flow from the turbo to the wastegate, and you increase boost Dustin~ says: i know the principle of the waste gate just not how the boost controller will hold the gate open and close.... i know air goes into the actuator and pushes against the spring to open the gate but how does it know how far to open and close it to keep a steady psi Jonesey says: the boost controller can do it different ways you have your ball/spring design so, it takes x amount of pressure to push the ball into the spring and once thats achieved, it allows the door to open if pressure drops below x the spring closes and the wastegate doesnt open so thats a way to control it you can use a bleeder type, where it literally just bleeds pressure off so it takes more to get there and an electronic boost controller has valves that pulse. The controller unit knows how much PSI the turbo is putting out, and it has range of operation, so it knows how to pulse the door to keep it open where it wants it thats how my profec-b works Dustin~ says: i see Jonesey says: it has a electronic solenoid controlled by the head unit. Head unit has a map sensor in it map sensor tells head unit Im making x amount of boost, and the head unit can see my boost curve so it controls it according to the knob settings on the unit Dustin~ says: i see Jonesey says: Im sorry if this isnt answering your question, but I cant SHOW you how a boost controller works Dustin~ says: ok that would help Jonesey says: you just have to wrap your head around the concept that limiting boost pressure to the wastegate is what controls boost, and any way you can do that achieves your goal Dustin~ says: once i get it in my mind what does what then i will have a much bigger understanding Jonesey says: do you have an air compressor? Dustin~ says: so with the car off is the gate open or shut? yes Jonesey says: gate is shut Dustin~ says: k Jonesey says: gate is always shut until you start boosting then the gate progressively opens Dustin~ says: so pressure goes into the line for the actuator and opens the valve accordingly Jonesey says: thats correct as the turbo builds pressure, it pushes against the wastegate and opens it boost controllers work by intercepting that signal and generally holding the gate shut till a preset amount of boost it makes you spool faster, and boost harder till the gate opens Dustin~ says: ok got ya THE REFINED PART>>>>>>>>>>> Basically look at these pictures 1 2 say the spring in the little canister (waste gate actuator) is 6 psi once the boost hits 6psi and the gate will be open so the exhaust pressure drops and you stop bosting as much then the dorr closes more and you boost more this just fluctuates as your boosting the rod you see in pic 2 pushes out of the actuator and opens the door accordingly depending on how much air pressure is in the top part of the canister. So on a stock car say a Audi 1.8t there is no boost controller. so once the the car starts boosting it starts to open the gate more and more leaking more and more exhaust pressure till you hit 6psi it is open, and it will open more and shut more depending how much boost the turbo makes regulating it close to 6psi. Now in picture 1 you see the purple line, it will have boost in it once the turbo creates positive air pressure, say I cut the hose or make it longer, run it up to your dash then install a boost controller then run the hose into the inlet on the boost controller then another line out of the outlet on the boost controller and back down to the wastegate. As the turbo boosts the controller reads how much boost your turbo is boosting. So till it gets close to your preset boost pressure (turn nob up or down on boost controller) it will start to open then send boost down to the wastegate actuator and let it open a little so you dont over boost. It will send pulses down to the actuator to keep your boost steady to the setting you have it set. Now with out a boost controller as soon as you start boosting it is going right to your actuator and opening the gate more and more as your boost higher and higher till you hit 6psi or what ever size spring is in the wastegate.. with a boost controller it sends nothing till you reach the desired boost so the door is held shut and ALL exhaust gasses go through the turbine so in return you have less turbo lag and it boost much harder in the bottom end. How the boost controller will let you boost more than the 6psi (spring) will let you is it will send 6 psi or more down to the spring to open the gate when you let off the throttle bust say you want 12 psi the controller withholds air from going to the wastegate so that the turbo boosts over 6 psi without the gate being opened, when you get to that 12psi mark the gate will slightly open and then pulse opening and closing to keep boost up to that 12psi mark without going over Due to the boost controller sending pulses of pressurized air to the actuator thus controlling the boost!!! Edited September 25, 2009 by kanoodle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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