Bansheeb0y5505 Posted August 29, 2009 Report Share Posted August 29, 2009 Guys, im not 99banshee, we're two different people if you didn't notice. lol. but Yup. That exact reason is why I don't make threads asking who will win. If a friend or someone wants to race, we wait until a trip to the Gap Hills. There's a really smooth, wide, straighaway thats perfect for drag racing. We have someone drop there arms, and race. I love racing for fun win or loose. I like seeing whats out there and how mine performs compared to other peoples. Right now im doing some long overdue maintaince on my banshee (Bushings, shock bushings, pilot jets ( still stock pilots making a slight hesitation on the bottom) HD clutch springs, etc. But now im starting to save up because my cylinders are being sent out to get ported eventually. And ill man up to my mistake on the streetbikes. I was pretty sure they were similar technologies, but at the same time bikes aren't my thing. I'm only 16 so im not exactly even close to being able to ride a streetbike. Here's that article. It's a little lenthy of a read, but interesting. I believe it was off motorcycle USA? "KTM has announced record 2008 sales of 25,000 two-stroke bikes and says it sees no end to the high-performance two-stroke. Australian firm Orbital is testing a 200bhp, fully emissions-compliant 1000cc twin that’s lighter and more fuel efficient than any rival four-stroke. Aprilia craves an accessible performance middleweight, says it could easily render its seminal RS250 Euro-3 compliant and has twice already come close to releasing such a bike. R&D departments in Europe, Asia and North America are arriving at the same conclusion: everything you know about two-strokes is wrong, and their revenge against the four-stroke is imminent. “The complexity of a high-performance four-stroke engine is frightening” says Steven Ahern of Australian engineering R&D firm Orbital, owner of key direct injection patents. “To get power out of a four-stroke you’ve got to go for high rpm, very fancy materials, and you’ve got to sacrifice the torque at low and mid rpm. The customer is the one who has to foot the bill and it’s becoming prohibitive – and they’re getting engines the same vices two strokes used to be damned with.” Orbital believes the two-stroke is the only engine which gives manufacturers the performance headroom customers will demand – and experts agree that none of the traditional two-stroke vices need apply. It’s only a matter of time before the truth shows through the four-stroke greenwash, says Denver Lawson, who as R&D consultant to China’s vast Jialing Motorcycle Company is designing a wave of new direct-injection two-stroke motors: “What the world wants is efficiency. And whether it’s efficiency or performance you want the fact a four-stroke wastes two strokes is a big issue. It’s not going to be a case of riders having to be convinced about two-strokes again, the world’s going to demand those wasted strokes back.” Emissions laws dealt a mortal blow to the performance two-stroke in the seventies and eighties, but it’s something other than technical realities that have kept the lid on the coffin, according to Dave Blundell of Lotus Engineering: “Any two-stroke can be made clean enough to pass current emissions standards thanks to Orbital’s air-assisted injection. But manufacturers have invested unimagined billions in four-stroke and they’re very happy for people’s prejudices about ‘dirty, peaky’ two-strokes to remain.” Orbital’s air-assisted direct injection technology (ADI) separates oil and fuel, keeping oil out of the combustion process and surrounding the fuel vapour in a plume of air which allows clean combustion in the short time the two-stroke cycle allows. The injection of the charge happens after the exhaust port is closed, so none is lost, and because the air injection is so effective at atomising the fuel, injector pressure can be lower – meaning the injector themselves can be cheap; far cheaper than the diesel injectors in your car which run at up to ten times the pressure. Orbital’s computer-controlled ADI cuts oil consumption by 80% and fills out the two-stroke’s torque curve to four-stroke-beating levels. It also dramatically reins in fuel consumption, as Mike Ambler - project leader in Aprilia’s engine department when the firm secretly tested ADI on its RS250 - remembers: “The ADI-equipped RS was so efficient that it could run on the tailpipe emissions of the regular RS250 at idle”. Dyno comparision - 450 two stroke vs. 450 four stroke. Dyno comparision - 450 two stroke vs. 450 four stroke. Tomorrow’s two-strokes on the dyno Future two-strokes will have capacities on a par with four-strokes, allowing a milder state of tune than that which earned them their peaky reputation. The result trounces the four-stroke for power, torque, flexibility and even service intervals says Orbital – whose experimental (and under-developed) 450cc single-cylinder two-stroke produced these curves against a rival 450cc four-stroke. The stroker also proved smaller and lighter, cheaper to build, less thirsty and with identical emissions. Orbital earns royalties on every ADI-equipped engine produced, and spent the nineties and early 2000s focusing on mass-market small-capacity utility machines and courting automotive firms. But it’s since entered into partnerships with high-performance bike manufacturers it says will bear fruit soon. Big fruit: “We’re testing a 1000cc engine with performance up to 200bhp and 118lb-ft per litre with performance anywhere and completely emissions compliant” says Ahern. Who those partners are Orbital won’t say, though an ADI-equipped EXC300 from KTM is strongly rumoured. But what it will say is telling: “Everyone, except Honda, is harbouring significant two-stroke thoughts” says Ahern. That’s no wonder, says Harald Bartol, two-stroke engineering luminary and technical director of KTM’s grand prix activities: “When I look at two strokes I see only advantages – the power, the weight, the cost and complexity. And the riding dynamics of two-stroke 250s are very close to the 800cc MotoGP bikes. If I were making a sportsbike for the road I would choose a 500cc V4 two-stroke. I have absolutely no doubt it would be superior to the current superbikes, and be possible with existing legislation.” It may even happen, as Bartol becomes more and more disenchanted with racing’s four-stroke pogrom: “The technical reasons for the change is nonsense. They are all excuses for a business plan which is coming from Honda.” It’s a disenchantment that’s echoed outside of racing. Dave Blundell of Lotus: “There are lots of very pro-two-stroke engineers at Honda, and they’ve done incredible work in the field, but within the firm it’s become regarded as disloyal to support two-strokes. Their influence is so massive it’s distorted the truth about the engineering.” The truth which even Honda knows says Aprilia’s Mike Ambler: “That two-strokes can be at least as clean, and more fuel efficient thank a four-stroke – their own benchmark tests with ADI-equipped two-strokes against their best four-strokes proved it.” Orbital’s Ahern: “10 years ago from an emissions point of view two-stroke and four-stroke engines were chalk and cheese. Honda’s marketing department went into overdrive and stayed there.” With oil and fuel separated, injection computer-mapped and the mixture air-blast assisted, the new breed of two-strokes won’t recognise their smoking, spluttering, peaky forbears. They may not resemble them in capacity either. Orbital now believes two-strokes of comparable capacities to four-strokes, running at a less frenetic pace, offer the best combination of explosive two-stroke power, and flat ’n’ fat four-stroke torque curve. The combination certainly proved mouthwatering for Aprilia. Mike Ambler: “In 2005-6 we looked long and hard at a 600cc two-stroke in an RS250 chassis. The prototype was slated to have 110-125bhp at 8-9000rpm, and weigh 145kg. That would have been a hot-rod, but in the end it was decided we’d have more chance of marketing a Mana than an RS600DI.” When asked if a clean middleweight two-stroke would bridge the yawning gap in Aprilia’s sportsbike range, product manager Francesco Polimeni replies: “I completely agree. And things seem to be changing in the past 12 months, customers warming up to this type of bike. We are keeping our eyes open so as to pounce on any opportunity that becomes available.” In the dyno rooms and laboratories of the world’s most advanced centres of R&D – including Britain’s Lotus and Ricardo – the boundaries of economy, performance and flexibility are being pushed with two-stroke technologies. Riders craving their explosive performance are feeding a burgeoning subculture of limited-run old-school strokers. So how long before they go mainstream again? As soon as riders know to demand them says Steven Ahern: “Today more than ever manufacturers are listening to what customers want, not saying ‘we’ve made this, you’ve got to buy it’. They’ve just got to know it’s okay to demand more torque, less weight and better efficiency at lower cost.” “I’ve ridden the future” Jeremy Bowdler is the editor of Australia’s Two Wheels magazine and the only man outside Aprilia to ride the RS250ADI – the Orbital-equipped next-generation RS. “It was Aprilia’s DiTech-equipped [Aprilia’s brand name for ADI] SR50 scooter that first got me thinking about the potential of an RS250. Jeez it was fast. I started pestering the local Aprilia distributors about giving Orbital an RS250 to play with, and eventually they let slip that there was, indeed, a RS. Eventually – after a long and difficult negotiation – I was not only allowed to see the bike, but I was also allowed to ride it. In the carpark. But at least I was riding something that didn’t exist. Officially.” A long discussion with the guys from Orbital, from sales and engineering, ensured that I would never, ever, ever mention the bike’s existence. So here goes. With the DiTech system the RS could run on various fuel maps, well before the variable fuel injection maps offered by today’s sportsbikes, and the engineers could build almost any power characteristics into the engine, short of an S-shaped power curve. “We could have a really soft delivery, say for riding in the rain, or a broad spread if you wanted that. We could even have an absolute ******* peaky engine, with nothing and then a 500rpm powerband. Almost anything is possible,” one engineer commented (and I saw the dyno charts). The proof was in the pudding. After a couple of laps of the carpark on the stock bike, I started the RS DiTech. Not a puff of smoke to be seen… The best description I can give is that it felt just like a four-stroke, pulling off the bottom end without any clutch slipping or two-strokiness. The noise was deeper, sort of halfway between a two and a four-stroke but the breadth of the powerband was what really impressed. Just a steady stream of non-peaky power. I was excited. As an aside, one of the engineers mentioned he could triple the range of a four-stroke dirt bike quite simply, without any need for a large tank. But there was one great regret: Bimota’s VDue. “We could have made that one work,” they said ruefully. ‘We’ve given up on four-strokes’ Leading outboard motor firm Evinrude sells at the premium performance end of the marine market. The firm abandoned four-stroke development after discovering direct injection offered their 25-300bhp two-strokes more power, better economy and less weight. They’re also emissions compliant to projected Euro 2010 standards. Spokesman Mike Loach says: “There’s a place for four strokes – doing the dull jobs. They’re bloody heavy and don’t give the power or the torque of the two-strokes. We believe two-strokes are simply better and people who try them quickly agree”. But Loach warns that the four-stroke mafia loom large: “The misinformation that’s spread about two-strokes goes right up to government. It’s a serious threat to our business, and we have to confront other manufacturers’ propaganda all the time.” Two-strokes at the cutting edge Lotus and Ricardo (architects of BMW’s K1300 engine) both have flagship two-stroke engines on the test bench. Lotus’ 500cc research engine Ominvore has a moveable ‘puck’ at the top end which it uses to alter the compression ratio, allowing it to run optimally on any fuel. It also features Orbital ADI and compression ignition capability – offering leading-edge combustion efficiency that the inherently energy-efficient two-stroke cycle complements perfectly. Early runs have Lotus very excited. Ricardo’s 2100cc 2/4SIGHT experimental engine is able to switch from 2-stroke to 4-stroke operation. It uses a 2-stroke cycle to meet demands for high torque and 4-stroke for constant-throttle running. In tests the engine has hit 165lb-ft per litre in two-stroke mode…" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slopoke Posted August 29, 2009 Report Share Posted August 29, 2009 I'm posting one more time.......My point is I have seen from my own eyes and experience a ds with just good bolt on out run a buddy of mine banshee with just pipes and lid off. His banshee on a dyno was 40 hp The ds put up 44hp and a lot more torque. They swapped riders a couple times and the ds still won. Now the banshee buddy is gettig a port job and a timing plate and some more basics. I will be willing to bet the banshee will beat it by a good bit. By the way you said inline 4's fire constantly. They don't They are offset and alot of them fire 2 at a time. Like stated above, there is alot more money in gp plus when is the last time you watched a real televised atv race on speed?????? They are not going to put alot of development into 4 stroke atvs. Do you realize that the r6 r1 gsxr and so forth are race ready from the floor for the most part??? No offence but get you some seat time and leave the keyboard or smart phone and go ride!!!! Nothing like experience. I am by no means experienced except I have watched the ds banshee thing. I own and operate an atv/utv repair business. BUT that don't make me GOD by no means, I come on here and ask people like dajr who have spent countless hrs on this type of stuff. As you can tell he don't talk shit he speaks experience. It is great that you are 15 and do this in your spare time instead of being out on a street corner. If you will"chill" and get some experience you have great capabilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajogejr Posted August 29, 2009 Report Share Posted August 29, 2009 Do us all a favor, just post a link to the article next time..sheesh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bansheeb0y5505 Posted August 29, 2009 Report Share Posted August 29, 2009 I do ride a lot locally. I wish I could go out to the coal mines more often but I don't even have my liscense, so I can't just load up my quad and go. And I already apologized about the streetbike thing and admitted I was wrong. And I would've posted the link to the article, but I lost the article. I posted the type on another forum so thats how I found that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandman81 Posted August 29, 2009 Report Share Posted August 29, 2009 Bansheeb0y5505 you apologized so we straight. But just like the other guys have said, get some seat time and once you have gotten a bunch, you get some more and some more and some more. But check this out I think you'll like, Aaen performance V-4 two stroke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bansheeb0y5505 Posted August 29, 2009 Report Share Posted August 29, 2009 Bansheeb0y5505 you apologized so we straight. But just like the other guys have said, get some seat time and once you have gotten a bunch, you get some more and some more and some more. But check this out I think you'll like, Aaen performance V-4 two stroke. haha thats just flat out awesome. 800cc and 215hp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jhughes7 Posted August 29, 2009 Report Share Posted August 29, 2009 you may be utterly wrong. I might be wrong, but I think there is a reason the people who goto the big drags and literally do have endless budgets, bring 2 strokes and not thumpers. Maybe they just like going slower amirite? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slopoke Posted August 29, 2009 Report Share Posted August 29, 2009 I might be wrong, but I think there is a reason the people who goto the big drags and literally do have endless budgets, bring 2 strokes and not thumpers. Maybe they just like going slower amirite? hmmm wonder what drags he has been going to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
99bansheeboy Posted August 29, 2009 Report Share Posted August 29, 2009 I might be wrong, but I think there is a reason the people who goto the big drags and literally do have endless budgets, bring 2 strokes and not thumpers. Maybe they just like going slower amirite? ur the biggest dumbass..who puts rims like that on a quad..youll blow ur bottom end idiot + its not cool unless your mexican or you like having alot of hoes on ur quad....no offence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jhughes7 Posted August 29, 2009 Report Share Posted August 29, 2009 ur the biggest dumbass..who puts rims like that on a quad..youll blow ur bottom end idiot + its not cool unless your mexican or you like having alot of hoes on ur quad....no offence You been here a whole 3 days and already calling people dumbasses? Are you a retard, you think that bike is mine? Its suppose to be funny, no self respecting banshee owner would ever put rims on there bike... Way to jump the gun a bit junior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
99bansheeboy Posted August 29, 2009 Report Share Posted August 29, 2009 You been here a whole 3 days and already calling people dumbasses? Are you a retard, you think that bike is mine? Its suppose to be funny, no self respecting banshee owner would ever put rims on there bike... Way to jump the gun a bit junior. oh ok good...i thought it was yours sorry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slopoke Posted August 29, 2009 Report Share Posted August 29, 2009 yall funny......I was hoping that wasnt yours. I watched a couple youtube vids with some dum dums with those big rims. Kinda retarded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bansheeb0y5505 Posted August 29, 2009 Report Share Posted August 29, 2009 LOL big rims are hilarious. It has to be the most pointless thing you can do to a quad. I've always been a fan of Hiper rims Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2K1Banshee350 Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Graphs are like infomercials, they can claim whatever and sell alot to people who don't have a clue. I agree with daj. The ds outpowers the shee. I am certain as I have seen with my own eyes that a stock banshee only puts out around 35 hp. I don't think his mods are close to 50. That 2 in 2 1 is killing it. You want torque at the bottom. This is apparently a waste of time arguing with the guy who believes this graph. I love my banshee but facts are facts. The ds with the same rider skills has better power control and will win. PERIOD I tell ya what graph guy. I have one of the crappy 05 trx450's only with a hrc kit. maybe 45hp if the wind is right. It will not get outran with a mild banshee. you said ur hrc kit only 450r has 45hp here, then 50 a few pages up. which is it? either way ur no where near 50. i owned an 04 with an hrc kit and would bet if its quicker then my banshee w/ t5s that it isnt much and top speed they should be the same or the bansee winning. and why do people always try to give a concrete number on hp? i dont own a dyno, but from what ive seen it depends on the day, temperature and more. also there should be an age limit, because if bansheeboy is 15, than how old are some of u other guys.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grizzly700 Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 you said ur hrc kit only 450r has 45hp here, then 50 a few pages up. which is it? either way ur no where near 50. i owned an 04 with an hrc kit and would bet if its quicker then my banshee w/ t5s that it isnt much and top speed they should be the same or the bansee winning. and why do people always try to give a concrete number on hp? i dont own a dyno, but from what ive seen it depends on the day, temperature and more. also there should be an age limit, because if bansheeboy is 15, than how old are some of u other guys.... lol not to be mean but your post was a complete waste of space. stop trying to start shit lol wen r u guys gonna race. i wanna know who wins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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