CHARIOT PERFORMANCE Reed Cage

[FireHead]

Here we go again...............

 

he used a oscillating flow bench designed by Fig Newton, model #356-niner007.. It flows 6 millions pixels per linear ft. But.. it didn't pass the Firehead Technical inspection... So its not Firehead compliant.

I'm an asshole................ and I approve that message. :biggrin:

 

The point I am always trying to get across: is that seemingly in this buisness, dyno testing, flow bench testing, etc. gets advertised as making something better than someone else's something.

 

In this case Boyesen and Moto Tassinari have fairly unique (read: expensive) blow-down simulation flow benches. Since there are actually very few of these benches out there in the world and since they are very expensive, it is easy to assume Chariot does not have one. Based on that, Chariot cannot say that their flow bench testing is thae same as competitors, which means there engineering effort is much different.

 

Their product may or may not work the same or better than others in the realm of scientific engineering approach. Thus they compensate for that with the money back gaurantee. Which is certainly the way to go, but at the end of the day if you were researching reed cages purely on data available, you could not compare these cages to others. Hence, why I would not spend my money in their direction. :geek:

[Onesickcrewcab]

I'm an asshole................ and I approve that message. :biggrin:

 

The point I am always trying to get across: is that seemingly in this buisness, dyno testing, flow bench testing, etc. gets advertised as making something better than someone else's something.

 

In this case Boyesen and Moto Tassinari have fairly unique (read: expensive) blow-down simulation flow benches. Since there are actually very few of these benches out there in the world and since they are very expensive, it is easy to assume Chariot does not have one. Based on that, Chariot cannot say that their flow bench testing is thae same as competitors, which means there engineering effort is much different.

 

Their product may or may not work the same or better than others in the realm of scientific engineering approach. Thus they compensate for that with the money back gaurantee. Which is certainly the way to go, but at the end of the day if you were researching reed cages purely on data available, you could not compare these cages to others. Hence, why I would not spend my money in their direction. :geek:

 

 

So what your saying is that you will only buy Boyseen or Moto Tassinari reed cages? Since nobody else in the world can afford the technology that your standards are set to? If you really think about it, they could be comparing there BS with the majority of others peoples BS. So in fact there comparisons would be correct with the exception of Boyseen and Moto Tassinari.

 

Chariot makes awesome products. Sure they may not have the super duper tell all flow bench with all your standards, but I wouldn't hesitate to buy there products. If everything you bought in the performance ATV industry had scientific proof behind it, this industry would be 3 times as expensive as it is or more. I can gaurantee you if you bought all tried and scientific proven products, you would get beat by someone out there that doesn't have all that stuff.

 

If you don't want there products, then don't buy them. But don't bash something you haven't tried yourself.

 

Not starting shit here. Just trying to get you to think!

[FireHead]

So what your saying is that you will only buy Boyseen or Moto Tassinari reed cages? Since nobody else in the world can afford the technology that your standards are set to? If you really think about it, they could be comparing there BS with the majority of others peoples BS. So in fact there comparisons would be correct with the exception of Boyseen and Moto Tassinari.

 

Chariot makes awesome products. Sure they may not have the super duper tell all flow bench with all your standards, but I wouldn't hesitate to buy there products. If everything you bought in the performance ATV industry had scientific proof behind it, this industry would be 3 times as expensive as it is or more. I can gaurantee you if you bought all tried and scientific proven products, you would get beat by someone out there that doesn't have all that stuff.

 

If you don't want there products, then don't buy them. But don't bash something you haven't tried yourself.

 

Not starting shit here. Just trying to get you to think!

By no means am I trying to bash Chariot. They seem to be making a good effort in pretty rough business.

 

On the other hand, the guy in this thread that said they do the same flow bench testing as everyone else, probably needs a bit of a love tap.

 

If you are actually interested in what I think about what's the better reed cage, then here's I've got based on what I've run/tested:

 

*A Boyesen RAD Valve is the way to go for a stock bore/stroke engine with something up to moderate port work.

*VF 3's seem to be the way to go for the 10mil and larger engines, especially if you have a cylinder that does not use an OEM Banshee reed cage.

*For the middle ground of engines (4mm stroke, w 65mm-68mm bore), I have not found something I am thrilled with. Boyesen doesn't cut it, especially if you are over a 35mm carb, and the rms of the VF 3's and VF2's isnt what I think it should be. I have tried a couple other cage manufacturers (Pyramid is one of them) for this configuration, and they performed so poorly, it's not really worth talking about.

 

I disagree with regard to you remarks about scientifically proven products. If you properly plan, assemble, and tune your engine based on information and measurements that is properly gathered, then you will be hard pressed to find someone who is simply assembling things out of forum fodder that will come close to beating you. Granted there is alot more involved in winning a drag race, but you can see where I am going here......

 

You might be wondering at this point, why I have not run a set of Charoit cages, especially if I don't have something I am completely happy with in my red bike. The answer is this: Chariot doesn't seem to have any flow bench data available at all. That's not really the issue or even a deal breaker. I actually see a couple design features that I do not like in their cages, and would really like to see some data that shows that the cages don't do what I think they might do in transient flow conditions. :geek:

[XxMeltIcexX]

Im definately gonna pick some up now, beating people with my trinity cylinders who laughed at them before... Now im gonna show them chariot racing's reeds flow better! :biggrin:

[flyhighprerunner]

By no means am I trying to bash Chariot. They seem to be making a good effort in pretty rough business.

 

On the other hand, the guy in this thread that said they do the same flow bench testing as everyone else, probably needs a bit of a love tap.

 

If you are actually interested in what I think about what's the better reed cage, then here's I've got based on what I've run/tested:

 

*A Boyesen RAD Valve is the way to go for a stock bore/stroke engine with something up to moderate port work.

*VF 3's seem to be the way to go for the 10mil and larger engines, especially if you have a cylinder that does not use an OEM Banshee reed cage.

*For the middle ground of engines (4mm stroke, w 65mm-68mm bore), I have not found something I am thrilled with. Boyesen doesn't cut it, especially if you are over a 35mm carb, and the rms of the VF 3's and VF2's isnt what I think it should be. I have tried a couple other cage manufacturers (Pyramid is one of them) for this configuration, and they performed so poorly, it's not really worth talking about.

 

I disagree with regard to you remarks about scientifically proven products. If you properly plan, assemble, and tune your engine based on information and measurements that is properly gathered, then you will be hard pressed to find someone who is simply assembling things out of forum fodder that will come close to beating you. Granted there is alot more involved in winning a drag race, but you can see where I am going here......

 

You might be wondering at this point, why I have not run a set of Charoit cages, especially if I don't have something I am completely happy with in my red bike. The answer is this: Chariot doesn't seem to have any flow bench data available at all. That's not really the issue or even a deal breaker. I actually see a couple design features that I do not like in their cages, and would really like to see some data that shows that the cages don't do what I think they might do in transient flow conditions. :geek:

 

 

I think personally instead of well in your terms not bashing Chariot (which Myself and others feel your doing, but thats beside's the point). Why dont you buy one of there reed cages and run them so you can have an input from experience. Chariot already said if your not happy with it he will give you a FULL refund.

[dirtfreak]

i agree with onesickcrewcab i don't have a flo bench never operated one and have no technology to see what works and what don't,i have tried boyesen reeds and v force and wasn't pleased with either.i took someones word for it bought 2 sets of blaster reeds off ebay and then bought some carbon flex reeds.off ebay.i sent the reeds and cages to a shop i use for porting, he ported the blaster reed cages.when i got them back put them in to my banshee and ill tell you what.i noticed more of a difference than i ever have on any reed i have ever used on any dirt bike atv or 2 stroke drag bike i have ever owned.i cant explain the workmanship in the reeds because i didnt do the work, i run all i can tell you is they work,more of a difference in v force and they look stock.so i guess sometimes people stumble across something that works with out all the technology.

[FireHead]

Im definately gonna pick some up now, beating people with my trinity cylinders who laughed at them before... Now im gonna show them chariot racing's reeds flow better! :biggrin:

You might remember that I am also the guy that says Trinity isn't all that bad if you pay close attention to what they are doing for you. Every once in awhile, they hire some folks that are good workers. :biggrin:

[FireHead]

I think personally instead of well in your terms not bashing Chariot (which Myself and others feel your doing, but thats beside's the point). Why dont you buy one of there reed cages and run them so you can have an input from experience. Chariot already said if your not happy with it he will give you a FULL refund.

.........well like I said. I think there is something wrong with the design. I have a hard time justifying the time spent, buying, trying, and possibly returning, a set of cages that I do not think will accomplish what I am looking for.

 

If I bought a set, returned them, and came back here and said they were crap...........would it matter to anyone, probably not. That's just m,y $.02.

[Chariot Performance]

I have read enough on forums to know that whenever you try to give HARD data all you get is criticism about methods used and equipment differences. The only hard data I could give is flow bench testing on the different cages we made. If there was a mathamatical formula to use that would give you the absolute correct configuration then we all would use it and there since the beginning of two strokes would have been no changes is design at all. There is not a pure scientific solution. Science accepts a percentage of unknown in all research or a percentage of failure. Does boyesen which is only has a couple of engineers have all the knowledge about reed cages or does the multitude of engine builders who we all know and have heard of. The builders do because together they have over the years worked with those guys and moto tassinari. Those compaines don't have magic that the rest of us don't. Most ENGINEERING is testing and going back to the drawing board. We don't compensate for the alleged unengineered products we make by giving offers of refunds. The simple fact is that we and many others are confident enough in our products they are willing to try for themselves what may work for their setup. At the end of the day if you want a faster 1/8 mile time on the track and our cage gives it to you over another then what cage is best. The one that gives it to you. If in another bike the competition gives a better time then in that case their cage is the best. For the gentleman that has some concerns about design aspects of our cages then I would like to hear them so I could respond. We have never had a failure of any kind with our cages and reeds on them. We have sold a lot of them and with our refund policy you know we would have heard of problems. I can tell you of many problems with moto cages which are well documented. Not that there is anything wrong with moto cages-there is not. But pushing the envelope causes some problems with them occasionally. I don't understand what kind of data I could give other than cfm or the very simple flow bench test of putting threads in certain areas of the cage and watching how it moves within the cage when attatched to the bench with or without a cylinder. I guess I could have 100 different banshee setups on a dyno to test every case but I already state in all advertisements don't even consider it for anything over 4mils. I don't remember seeing any data from moto or boyesen-none at all. I don't even think they state the cfm's there cages flow. Maybe their million dollar benches don't measure cfm because I have never seen their data.

 

To sum up this rant: 1)All of our products are well engineered even if it takes some changes to current designs. 2)We readily change our products when we see a way to improve 3)We do not make or sell junk-none at all 4)If we made junk then we would have to give all our sales money back which would be a stupid way to conduct business so we have chosen to make quality parts 5)We have made parts for over 8 years and not a single refund except one for a customer you ordered intake for a stock cylinder but had a cheetah 6)If anyone reading this post knows of a single part we ever refunded money for or had to refund money for then please pipe in in this forum 6)We have had very few issues with parts and addressed them very professionally 7)Based on all the above we have earned yes earned the right to be trusted. Trust is circular and once it is shown you can't be trusted then the circle breaks. I am not interested in risking my company by offering any product which is not trustworthy.

 

Thanks to all the guys who do like our products and defend our reputation.

 

I could offer cfm data but simply put that is only part of the equation to the design. Angles and measurements make up the rest. Combinations of the three make the overall design choice. Simply put a stock cage with stock reeds flows the worst. With boysen reeds it flows better. With certain angles changed it flows even better. With certain radius changes it flows even better. With certain up kick angles at the tip of the reed it flows better. With certain widths of the cage at the tip it flows better. With no center support vertically it flows even better (in stock design you may go to far and cause damage to pedals). With certain thicknesses at the tip of the cage it flows even better. With cages built to accept blaster reeds it flows even better. With certain machining paths (mill marks) it flows even better.

 

And if you sprinkle pixie dust on them they work like magic. Have a great holiday season everyone and don't take my rants to seriously cause I understand that even criticism about our parts is acceptable and welcome as long as I as a freedom loving individual am free to respond and we still all remain Banshee HQ buddies.

Edited December 14, 2008 by Chariot Performance

[FireHead]

To sum up this rant: 1)All of our products are well engineered even if it takes some changes to current designs. 2)We readily change our products when we see a way to improve 3)We do not make or sell junk-none at all 4)If we made junk then we would have to give all our sales money back which would be a stupid way to conduct business so we have chosen to make quality parts 5)We have made parts for over 8 years and not a single refund except one for a customer you ordered intake for a stock cylinder but had a cheetah 6)If anyone reading this post knows of a single part we ever refunded money for or had to refund money for then please pipe in in this forum 6)We have had very few issues with parts and addressed them very professionally 7)Based on all the above we have earned yes earned the right to be trusted. Trust is circular and once it is shown you can't be trusted then the circle breaks. I am not interested in risking my company by offering any product which is not trustworthy.

 

Thanks to all the guys who do like our products and defend our reputation.

 

I could offer cfm data but simply put that is only part of the equation to the design. Angles and measurements make up the rest. Combinations of the three make the overall design choice. Simply put a stock cage with stock reeds flows the worst. With boysen reeds it flows better. With certain angles changed it flows even better. With certain radius changes it flows even better. With certain up kick angles at the tip of the reed it flows better. With certain widths of the cage at the tip it flows better. With no center support vertically it flows even better (in stock design you may go to far and cause damage to pedals). With certain thicknesses at the tip of the cage it flows even better. With cages built to accept blaster reeds it flows even better. With certain machining paths (mill marks) it flows even better.

 

And if you sprinkle pixie dust on them they work like magic. Have a great holiday season everyone and don't take my rants to seriously cause I understand that even criticism about our parts is acceptable and welcome as long as I as a freedom loving individual am free to respond and we still all remain Banshee HQ buddies.

 

If what you are saying is true, then I have two questions:

 

1.) What is the thinckness of the boundary layer of air flow across your lower reed petal at 7000rpm'ish (with regard to your previous comment MT and Boyesen will help with bits and pieces of test data if you ask them for it)?

 

2.) Why do you tell people that you have never refunded money to anyone for any of your parts, with the exception of one mis-ordered parts? You must certainly remember refunding my money for the head I bought from you in which there were no standard Banshee domes on the planet that would fit them. I do recall the attitude of the guy I spoke to at the time of those dealings to be about the same though. Interesting.....

 

With that said, Chariot is definitely trying to do something good for the sport is the face of a terrible economy and an even tougher market. There is something to be said for that. :thumbsup:

[Chariot Performance]

If what you are saying is true, then I have two questions:

 

1.) What is the thinckness of the boundary layer of air flow across your lower reed petal at 7000rpm'ish (with regard to your previous comment MT and Boyesen will help with bits and pieces of test data if you ask them for it)?

 

2.) Why do you tell people that you have never refunded money to anyone for any of your parts, with the exception of one mis-ordered parts? You must certainly remember refunding my money for the head I bought from you in which there were no standard Banshee domes on the planet that would fit them. I do recall the attitude of the guy I spoke to at the time of those dealings to be about the same though. Interesting.....

 

With that said, Chariot is definitely trying to do something good for the sport is the face of a terrible economy and an even tougher market. There is something to be said for that. :thumbsup:

 

I stated the only information I would be able to give with regard to flow bench testing is cfm flow and flow tests with thread if I had recorded the flow tests we did with threads. I also stated I would not make the mistake of getting into hard data discussions which do not lead anywhere.

 

With regard to refunds I also stated if anyone knows of one then please bring it too my attention. I exchanged 4 heads that had chrome because of the difficulty of people fitting therir domes even though it is a given with chromed parts that some fitting of the assembly may be required. By some fitting I mean sanding .001" off the diameter of the dome. Chrome plating on aluminum is very difficult to control thickness to within .002". I honestly don't remember refunding money for a head but I do remember one person who realized it was the shape of the K&T domes they had which didn't allow fitting to our heads.

 

In either case I am gonna quit responding to this thread because it seems the two of us are a bit stubborn all though we both have been very cordial and polite.

[FireHead]

I stated the only information I would be able to give with regard to flow bench testing is cfm flow and flow tests with thread if I had recorded the flow tests we did with threads. I also stated I would not make the mistake of getting into hard data discussions which do not lead anywhere.

 

With regard to refunds I also stated if anyone knows of one then please bring it too my attention. I exchanged 4 heads that had chrome because of the difficulty of people fitting therir domes even though it is a given with chromed parts that some fitting of the assembly may be required. By some fitting I mean sanding .001" off the diameter of the dome. Chrome plating on aluminum is very difficult to control thickness to within .002". I honestly don't remember refunding money for a head but I do remember one person who realized it was the shape of the K&T domes they had which didn't allow fitting to our heads.

 

In either case I am gonna quit responding to this thread because it seems the two of us are a bit stubborn all though we both have been very cordial and polite.

 

I apologize, I read threads and my mind skipped to the form of visualizing CFD results as opposed to actual tell-tale testing. Would you be willing to share any pictures or video of that? I would like to see it, regardless of any technical value, though I appreciate the fact that you may not want to show it due to someone might steal your ideas.

 

My head was anodized, not chromed......

 

I shall also not continue to respond to the thread as it seems that we really aren't getting anywhere............ :thumbsup:

[dajogejr]

Sorry I'm late to this party....

 

I have a Chromed Chariot Head. I did have to sand just a hair off the domes I got from Patriot Racing.

A few guys had issues with the head around here, Chariot Promptly replaced them because of an issue.

 

I purchased two heads off him, one for me that I still currently use...and one for NYUK.

Both of these were purchased with his older style of head nuts.

 

Without any question, he sent me two sets of the new, 14mm chrome heavy duty acorn nuts and new brass washers, simple as that.

 

I can tell you he stands behind his products 100% and is a helluva nice guy.

 

That being said.

 

I know Firehead has worked or still works for race teams that have millions of dollars for R&D at their disposal.

He does know his facts and can spout off engineering and test data until you fall asleep (if you haven't already....)

 

However....

 

Riding banshees is not Formula 1 or Nascar.

 

I know for a fact Chariot has worked with one of the most respected names in the business, whose work speaks for itself.

A&S.

 

In our sports, and for our needs...I will take things Dan Hull has helped design and test over what a computer tells me.

 

As Firehead did, I applaud Chariot for coming out with some innovative products that Joe Average can afford and appreciate.

[FireHead]

Sorry I'm late to this party....

It's not like you to be late for a goat rope.............. :biggrin:

[dajogejr]

You are depriving some village of it's idiot.

Please return home, Pronto... Beam him up Mr. Scotty....

 

:biggrin: :biggrin: