Wiz Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 (edited) Glad I'm not the only one that thought the same. Since you seem to know it all Wiz...why don't you break it down for us. Please tell me why he should run this cub with PT mid pipes...please, I'm dying to know. Tell me what the optimal compression should be...and why you're at it, the proper compression ratio. Tell me what domes, squish, squish band, MSV, exhaust, intake, transfer and blow down timings he should have. Tell me which base gasket he should run. The fact that I have to explain to you that a dune ported set of stockers with his carb/pipe setup will have a broader range of power (READ...MORE USABLE RANGE) than a cub proves to me the fact that you don't have a clue. The fact you think it's in his best interest, or anyone's for that matter....to detune a cub by placing small carbs and more restrictive pipes reinforces that. Lastly, tell me how many cub cylinders you personally have setup, have run, what kind of numbers... Even though anyone that has some already knows the answer. None. Wow I sure pissed in your wheaties.....I am sorry you don't like me, I appolgized to 2001banshee or the rude comment I had said, was this not good enough for you guys? I was not trying to piss anyone off but everyone has there own oppinion and you guys are like if you oppinion is not like ours you are a trouble maker.... I only push back when pushed.... Simple fact of the matter is that YOU are a drag racer and think that everyone is or should be. when in fact a very minute fraction of 1 percent could give 2 shits less about how big your stroker motor is or how fast you ran at the track last weekend. Every one of your posts in this has been about racing, this thread was in no way started over racing but you keep comming back to it. You are out to make the most power you possably can to go the fastest you possably can with out thinking about longevity of your equipment or the cost. Now MOST people want to go out ride and have a good time with there friends and family weather it be on the sand or the dirt. That does not mean running at the track. they want something bolt on that when they are ready they can do this and it will still match there existing stock parts.... While I do not have all the answers for you I am the first to admit. I do know how things work in the real world away from the track where people do not run just 300' at a time and want the atvantages of a mono-block set-up. Don't be a tool, we all know that a dune ported stockers make optimal broad range power, but they seriously lack in power say if, you were a big guy 300lbs, in relability still running steel sleeves, cooling capablity and then putting you trust in a builder to make a 80 hp. stock based motor that is going to be cost effecient and again reliable. Speaking of re-enforcing statements since when is taloring something to the way it fits you and the way you ride detuning? you see the banshee world through only your eyes and think everyone should be like you and run at the track... I never said anything about his best intrest, through this whole conversation I have been mearly stating that not everybody wants all that top end power they want ot be able to ride the bike and not just race it, There are other pipe and carb combonations out there than the full race set-ups that is why calvin developed these cylinders to accept stock parts.... As far as my stroker motor experience: 10 mil 510 from Jim Duncan and charlie brown @ superior sleeve 10 mil 535 chhetah from Trinity 4 mil 421 from Dan Wade @ Patriot 7/4 mil 421 from Cameron at Redline I have taken advise from each of the builders I purchased these kits from and combined how I wanted them to run. made some mistakes here and there but all of my bikes have ran hard off the track where they were built for.... Edited December 10, 2008 by Wiz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiz Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Before you go crazy why dont you check out cascades website most if not all the bikes run paul turners so if there such a bad idea why do they do it and yes they are on cub motors twister setups.I run my paul turners for the bottom end that cpi pipes can not provide so i can get the hole shot bottom end grunt we here in oregon race up the bowl not on the flats and the sand can be real loose i dont want to just spin my wheels down in a deep tree shot . so if i have to give a little on top to get some on the bottom so be it . This method is common out here makes for a much better duneable bike might not be the quickest in a straight line will hand most people there ass most of the time .SO IF YOU NEVER HAVE TRIED IT DONT KNOCK IT this is because he is drag racer and does not understand the concept of hills, trees or corners.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PACIFIC NW BANSHEE Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Wow I sure pissed in your wheaties.....I am sorry you don't like me, I appolgized to 2001banshee or the rude comment I had said, was this not good enough for you guys? I was not trying to piss anyone off but everyone has there own oppinion and you guys are like if you oppinion is not like ours you are a trouble maker.... I only push back when pushed.... Simple fact of the matter is that YOU are a drag racer and think that everyone is or should be. when in fact a very minute fraction of 1 percent could give 2 shits less about how big your stroker motor is or how fast you ran at the track last weekend. You are out to make the most power you possably can to go the fastest you possably can with out thinking about longevity of your equipment (your daddy must pay for your toys still) or the cost. Now MOST people want to go out ride and have a good time with there friends and family weather it be on the sand or the dirt. That does not mean running at the track. they want something bolt on that when they are ready they can do this and it will still match there existing stock parts.... While I do not have all the answers for you I am the first to admit. I do know how things work in the real world away from the track where people do not run just 300' at a time and want the atvantages of a mono-block set-up. Don't be a tool, we all know that a dune ported stockers make optimal broad range power, but they seriously lack in power say if, you were a big guy 300lbs, in relability still running steel sleeves, cooling capablity and then putting you trust in a builder to make a 80 hp. stock based motor that is going to be cost effecient and again reliable. Speaking of re-enforcing statements since when is taloring something to the way it fits you and the way you ride detuning? you see the banshee world through only your eyes and think everyone should be like you and run at the track... I never said anything about his best intrest, through this whole conversation I have been mearly stating that not everybody wants all that top end power they want ot be able to ride the bike and not just race it, There are other pipe and carb combonations out there than the full race set-ups that is why calvin developed these cylinders to accept stock parts.... As far as my stroker motor experience: 10 mil 510 from Jim Duncan and charlie brown @ superior sleeve 10 mil 535 chhetah from Trinity 4 mil 421 from Dan Wade @ Patriot 7/4 mil 421 from Cameron at Redline I have taken advise from each of the builders I purchased these kits from and combined how I wanted them to run. made some mistakes here and there but all of my bikes have ran hard off the track where they were built for.... very well written just because people post umpteen thousand post on here they must be correct .The 80 hp out of stock ha ha ha.The truth is we have a huge pool of individuals here in the nw in are back yard to draw knowledge from.props to charlie brown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanYE west Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 very well written just because people post umpteen thousand post on here they must be correct .The 80 hp out of stock ha ha ha.The truth is we have a huge pool of individuals here in the nw in are back yard to draw knowledge from.props to charlie brown I got dyno's of stock cylinder dune ports making 80+hp.. Post some of your detuned cubs... we'll see wich is the better setup. Just because someone drag races.. doesn't mean thats all they do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PACIFIC NW BANSHEE Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 this is because he is drag racer and does not understand the concept of hills, trees or corners.... Well i dont know where they ride out in michigan but i guarantee you riding in the sand is know where as big as it is here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanYE west Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Well i dont know where they ride out in michigan but i guarantee you riding in the sand is know where as big as it is here No.. Silver Lake Sand Dunes isn't the biggest in the country but its not the smallest either. I'ver heard of a few other that were smaller. I think its 1500 acres or somthing like that with 800 acres set aside for ORV use. I started out dune riding like most people and just wanted to keep going faster and faster.. Next thing you know your doing dune drags.. and then your at the track with your dune bike getting times.. and next thing you know.. you got a fully built drag bike. Its a sickness.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hercalmighty Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Dude it has nothing to do with you voicing your opion. Its the way you come across man. You make yourself sound like you are the God of banshee or something. Also when a guy has only been on here a little while and starts trashing guys who do know there ish your going to be disliked. Also nobody pushed you, you just jumped in. ok now that I have that out here is my question for you. Why would you spend more money to build a motor to just detune the thing instead of building the right motor for your application for less? It makes no sense to me to go out and build a Cub motor for how ever much then put a pipe on it that detunes the motor. There are plenty of good builders out there that could build you a motor for less money thats just as relible and just as fast (if not even better for your riding style) Also to me it makes no sense to buy a bike that has a topend motor then spend tons of money to change the power delivery. If you want a bike with a broad powerband buy a 4 stroke. When ever I buy something I ride it and figure out what it likes. Once I find out what it likes I buy the parts to compliment the power curve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PACIFIC NW BANSHEE Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Dude it has nothing to do with you voicing your opion. Its the way you come across man. You make yourself sound like you are the God of banshee or something. Also when a guy has only been on here a little while and starts trashing guys who do know there ish your going to be disliked. Also nobody pushed you, you just jumped in. ok now that I have that out here is my question for you. Why would you spend more money to build a motor to just detune the thing instead of building the right motor for your application for less? It makes no sense to me to go out and build a Cub motor for how ever much then put a pipe on it that detunes the motor. There are plenty of good builders out there that could build you a motor for less money thats just as relible and just as fast (if not even better for your riding style) Also to me it makes no sense to buy a bike that has a topend motor then spend tons of money to change the power delivery. If you want a bike with a broad powerband buy a 4 stroke. When ever I buy something I ride it and figure out what it likes. Once I find out what it likes I buy the parts to compliment the power curve. I dont know if you are asking me these question now i did jump in but is that the idea behind a forum and as far as trashing i dont see that only strong opinions on both side .First of all the reason i would build a motor like and yes i built this motor is for the hp not the top end sand robs hp and if i build 400 420 and run paul turners still a fast bike but not as much power as i would like so i built a 460 and put some low end on a bike that from the factory that has to much top end already.So this set up makes really good all around power i know this sounds weird but it works really well and it is reliable i know the old school thought is to put a set of big pipes on the bike and haul ass fun yes but out here if you like riding in the sand you have to deal with trees and narrow trails .Dont look at it as detuning the bike as much as placing power where i want it and in my situation bottom end grunt is helpful.I guess the best way to describe it is would you like to drive a top fuel dragster all day or if you could or drive ferrari that has more than enough power and can carve the canyon and drive all day.Trust me works very well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PACIFIC NW BANSHEE Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 I got dyno's of stock cylinder dune ports making 80+hp.. Post some of your detuned cubs... we'll see wich is the better setup. Just because someone drag races.. doesn't mean thats all they do. what bore and hell yes teduned if that is what you want call it way better than stock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hercalmighty Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 I wasnt pointing at you so much as Wiz. I race harescrambles and MX so I get the whole thing of what your saying but your trying to build a Hotrod into a ferrari. Banshee are topend bikes that like to be riding up top and feather the cluth. Its like the difference between a 125 motocrosser and a 250 motorcrosser. 250's you use the throttle alot more and run through the whole powerband. 125's like to just be pinned and you feather the cluth to get them around. Now you cant just pin a banshee and play with the clutch but it is the same principle. If I wanted a quad with a broader powerband I would have gone with a 4poke or a 250R. I like the top end bike that is the banshee so I ride it the way it wants. I dont have a problem with putting a pipe on that gives a little more on bottom but putting a mid pipe on a drag ported cylinder just seems stupid to me. Like I said your trying to build a ferrari out of a Dragster and it makes no sense. Dont take a blown big block and put a full exhaust on it with a single barrel carb. Thats what you guys are doing to the Cubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanYE west Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Just curious.. Why would you keep building the same type of motor? Why didn't you just use a cheetah PV. It would have saved you money in the long run and had ALOT better power spread. Rather then get a motor and place the power where you want it.. Why not just buy a motor with the power where you want it? Thats like your top fuel dragster theory.. you could buy the top fueler then place the power where you want it.. or you could just buy the ferrari.. See my point? Pick a pipe to suit the motor.. not a motor to suit the pipe. Its cheaper and easier not to mention you'll get better overall power. You said your running a 460, so I'm assuming your using a 10mil cub? I'd have to say that a 421 cheetah PV with CPI's would have more bottom power and more top power then a 10mil cub with PT's. Ofcourse thats all theoretical, I havn't seen many PV dyno's.. But I think it'd give it one hell of a run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PACIFIC NW BANSHEE Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Just curious.. Why would you keep building the same type of motor? Why didn't you just use a cheetah PV. It would have saved you money in the long run and had ALOT better power spread. Rather then get a motor and place the power where you want it.. Why not just buy a motor with the power where you want it? Thats like your top fuel dragster theory.. you could buy the top fueler then place the power where you want it.. or you could just buy the ferrari.. See my point? Pick a pipe to suit the motor.. not a motor to suit the pipe. Its cheaper and easier not to mention you'll get better overall power. You said your running a 460, so I'm assuming your using a 10mil cub? I'd have to say that a 421 cheetah PV with CPI's would have more bottom power and more top power then a cub with PT's. Ofcourse thats all theoretical, I havn't seen many PV dyno's.. But I think it'd give it one hell of a run. Not the way i wanted to go with the bike dont care for the pv and as far as save money not really it is all expensive my power band is great and yes i see your point and on one hand thats what i built but put it together the way i like it .This trend is catching on out here everyday i know it seems backwards but it works and if i want i can throw out of frames and get all the top end and the motor is a twister small mono block with 4 mil 72.5 pistons .It works really well these pipes provide bottom end i just cant find with any other setup now understand we are riding at sea leve in really soft sand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanYE west Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Not the way i wanted to go with the bike dont care for the pv and as far as save money not really it is all expensive my power band is great and yes i see your point and on one hand thats what i built but put it together the way i like it .This trend is catching on out here everyday i know it seems backwards but it works and if i want i can throw out of frames and get all the top end and the motor is a twister small mono block with 4 mil 72.5 pistons .It works really well these pipes provide bottom end i just cant find with any other setup now understand we are riding at sea leve in really soft sand Gotcha.. Yah.. a twister motor makes more sense now. 460 kinda threw me for a sec. I'm not familiar with the twisters port layout out of the box. But I have heard there is alot more to work with for porting. I'm sure your setup with proper porting runs hard. I was refering to the cubs. 95% of us over here use CP stuff so I wont pretend to have alot of experience with the twisters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PACIFIC NW BANSHEE Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Gotcha.. Yah.. a twister motor makes more sense now. 460 kinda threw me for a sec. I'm not familiar with the twisters port layout out of the box. But I have heard there is alot more to work with for porting. I'm sure your setup with proper porting runs hard. I was refering to the cubs. 95% of us over here use CP stuff so I wont pretend to have alot of experience with the twisters. yeah its weird shit the funny things is you dont see the pv setups out here at all.I am just power junky that decided i would go a different way and it works this is my third 460 motor just found it to be a power monster and reliable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtfreak Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 back in the day b 4 quads were even thought of,they used to change pipes on dirt bikes like the honda elsinores,cr 125 for instance.you could get a high pipe a low pipe or a mid rise pipe to change the power band of the engine.between the pipe changes you could have lower end grunt,mid range power or more top end power from the change of your pipe.i go back to these days and rode and owned these old school bikes.i have owned many kawi h2 tripple 2 stroke 750's hi 500's yamaha rd's etc.i also have alot of drag racing experience 1/4 mi and 1/8 mile my last drag bike ran 5.20 at a 149 mph in the 1/8 mile and 7.6 sec in the quarter what banshee does that none.anyway my point here is i agree with alot of what every one is saying here,alot of good points have been made for the big rpm motors and for the guy thats trying to make usable power.i can see taking a cub motor and making usable power and the extra cooling the cub cylinders provide among other reasons.im always reading about how people are looking for more hp,im one of them but at the same time i have a trail quad and its a 4 stroke great for tight trail rides and race Chase through the woods.my banshee being way faster than my z400 i dont think my banshee can fuck with my z 400 in its habitat where it shines and the z wont fuck with the banshee in a drag race.bottom line here is nobody is correct or wrong cause there is a million ways to skin a cat and something that work for one person may not work for the other.thats why we have options and and able to make our own decisions.and nobody here has figured out what works for them with out trial and error.i think more people need to be more opened minded even though you have been through all the trial and error,no matter what one may know theres always something to learn and new ways to do things,i have found that the smartest one can learn something from the dumbest one on more than on e occasion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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