McCoy's Performance

Ziggy is a excellent mechanic. And any negative comments about Ziggy in this thread are unfounded.

Hello everyone. Nate McCoy here. I am very sorry to read this whole discource, seems like this thread got out of sorts early on. We regret that anything that cast a negative light on the 7mm parts was said. Tripledsracing has presented the true facts concerning this motor. It is true that I built a 7mm cub for Ziggy. And tripleds owns it now, and has it for sale. It is true that it has run 3.8s at Sand Rat Drags in Oklahoma. I believe it did this in it's present configuration, although the setup has been altererd, from what I understand. We do, however, face this scenario often: we build/test/sell to one customer, it changes hands, setup or location, and we are called on to vouch for the original setup. But if any of the owners have altered the setup at all, power and reliablilty is always at stake. We spend countless hours trying to break records, not just break. And we put great effort in our customers motors to see that they have every advantage to beat the competition. Extensive hours of field testing and dyno reasearch goes into our setups. But after all our efforts, we constantly recieve a motor that is "tuned" by someone else, and sometimes "corrected" our setup that are down as much as 30% in power. And we are blamed. A change as simple as incorrect base gasket, and changed piston style, a "new" dome, someone elses carbs, changed ignition timing, and you have either a dog or time bomb. Anyone that purchases one of "our" motors used, would do well to send it to us and have us go over the setup, and verify that it is correctly configured, and not altered. We will provide that service very quickly and the inspection is FREE if components are unassembled. Dyno tuning a motor that we origiannly built is very affordable too. We can also recomend any update on that particular setup if we have changed anything. Thanks in advance for understanding. Nate McCoy-

Absolutely worth sharing, even hilarious. You made me laugh. Nothing like bringing up the foolishness of gambling to make a point. LOL I understand that the Dynojet is the "poor boy" Dyno. However, my experience is that the repeatability is still rather amazing. Of course there is huge room for human error which I believe accounts for huge inconsistencies. But using the SAE correction factors, it is possible to produce back-up data on different days/ times of day/ temperatures/ atmospheric pressures, and so on. A decent motor will back up it's #s within 1% on a Dynojet once the air/fuel is matched, even when the environment is changed significantly. The only thing that seems to be a real problem with repeatability is atmospheric moisture (humidity variations). Our #s are slightly less on a rainy day: usually we see about a 2+% loss from a "dry" day baseline. We can also, in most cases, get sufficient load to find clutch slip. On motors 150hp and less, when we cure clutch slip on the Dyno, it will hold in the field. If it slips on the Dyno, it will slip in the field. So the Data, though inferior to a comparable Superflow's, has some relevance. The challenges of inertia-only testing is "loading the motor" to a level that has any relevance in to real-world application that it will run in. Gearing becomes crucial. And back up testing must be made at the same load rates (gearing), of course, to obtain meaningful data (which must include repeatability). The higher the HP, the greater the challenge. This is not a Dynojet commercial, by any means. They might be some of the worst dynos on the market. But with all of their inabilities and limitations, they are still a tool with enough repeatability to generate data that is useful. IMHO

The Dyno jet has very good repeatability. But the inertia dynos have some limitations for sure. You can purchase an eddy current "load cell" for the inertia Dynojets. :biggrin: And it is then much easier to do some testing. But most do not have them. And so the tuner is forced to alter gear ratios to change the load.

What about adjustability? All we are looking for in lockout adjustability, is this: How can we make this thing hold the torque we are making? Either the clutch is slipping and not transferring the power out that is coming in, or the clutch is failing prematurely because it's barley able to hold the power when the components are all new, but starts slipping as soon as there is some wear. So yes, we want adjustment; if the current setup slips, then we want to add weight to the pivot arms to force to clutch springs. And hopefully gain enough to make the clutch hold. The bottom line is this, "Will the clutch system hold the torque the motor produces?." With the GP lockout we are holding more torque. So you don't adjust it...lol The effectiveness can be reduced by removing the # of balls that are in it. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but just from memory here's a sample: A new stock Banshee clutch will hold about 32ft lbs of torque on our dyno. A stk banshee clutch with Barnett springs will hold about 36ft lbs of torque. A Barnett complete clutch kit holds about 40ft lbs of torque. A Toomey complete clutch kit holds about 52ft lbs of torque. A Toomey w/ Direct Drive lockout holds about 60 ft lbs of torque at 7000rpm Then we can increase the holding power by more spring pressure, and adding weight to the lockout arms. With a 7 disc clutch, it is very difficult, even utilizing every trick we know of, to get it to hold over 70 lbs of torque. Unless we go to overdrive primary gears. Then we have had to go to an 8 disc system, and we have held torque in the mid 80s at 7000rpm. Where do we go next? We have to get either more clutch surface area (add more discs), or more pressure (stronger spring and/or more powerful lockout). The GP lockout has already held well over 100ft lbs of torque @ 7000rpm, and we haven't found the slip-point yet.... :biggrin:

I am sure that the initial test was on the Dyno with a significant load. Likely 5000 to 10,000rpm in 6 sec. (That would be a load like testing with a dynojet with gearing to do about 250mph at the top of the run...lol) Then "skinny" Boston took it to the sand, and that was a load test...hehehe Actually he's not that big, maybe 220lbs? And 14p extremes running in the sand geared to do 100mph, and using it all in 300ft.

You guys are just too nice.

Wait a minute! You're too big for that. LOL Great job on the setup guys. That is more than a good motor setup, you guys are hooking it up. I guess they will be calling it a 10mm soon.

$325 for what we run. Best we have found, and I can get a selection of ratios. We have 2.86, and 2.68 in stock most of the time. We have tested them to 200hp...

Thanks Rob. You guys are trying to make me feel welcome... :biggrin:

Thanks for the kind words.

65mm and 66mm bore are where we find the smallest gains. We did a 397cc 4mm that was almost 90hp clean-up ported on our dyno, and went to 101hp best run drag ported, on gas. We are still shy of 110hp/alky on our dyno with the 397s. That motor made the fastest under 400cc pass at the PS drags of 3.92@82, and that was even on gas. On alky at an ASDA certified track it has run 3.79@84, and runs consistant low 3.80s with the skinney rider. Our dyno is quite conservative, imho. :cool:

Inland was a joke, sorry. But we face constant pressure to match their prices. LOL Cascade does polish components beautifully. As a matter of fact, we reduced the price of our polishing in light of theirs. They are nice people, but not a great source for someone who is serious about power. Cp products have minimum prices that no dealer is suppose to go bellow, otherwise they jeopardize their dealership. To answer the question about "clean-up" ported vrs. Drag ported we typically see 15hp, depending on the size of the cylinder. The small bores are the hardest to find gains on for sure. It is true that they work well out-of-the-box. But also true that there are relatively large gains to be found by the builder.

Actually, new cylinders make my job a lot more fun. :biggrin: And he is slackin', It's been way over a year since he has made a new one for the Banshee. lol :biggrin:

The choice of builder should be a serious consideration. We have seen over 20hp variation on the same size cubs from different builders. It does matter. If you buy a ported cub from a builder and it is not 10+ hp better than out-of-the-box, they have not done their job. That is all I'll say here since we are not a sponsor here yet. If you're only concerned with looks and price, many go to Inland ATV, or Cascade Innovations. Inland is the cheapest, Cascade is also cheap, and has the most beautiful polished components on the market (for what it's worth..lol)